Author Topic: Must we have the helmets ?  (Read 3896 times)

Offline Gints Klimanis

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Must we have the helmets ?
« on: February 04, 2008, 03:11:55 PM »
"Many skaters, snowboarders shun helmets
Nearly half of kids surveyed said nothing would convince them to wear gear"
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22995016/

Just like the padded playgrounds make it easier for kids to engage in riskier behavior, do the helmets allow the same?  As in, do the helmets allow kids to up their risk by a notch , thus not changing the actual safety of rough play?

"We do not condone the use of a toilet seat as a deadly weapon"
Go Shin Jutsu Kenpo, 3rd Degree Black Belt Prof. Richard Lewis
Bono JKD/Kajukenbo, Prof. John Bono, San Jose, CA
Baltic Dog, Dog Brothers Martial Arts

Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Must we have the helmets ?
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2008, 08:12:24 PM »
I often wonder if people tend to be more careful when not wearing equipment.  I know in boxing sparring when not wearing helmet the students tend to box more skillfully and not throw wild punches...
GM John E Bono DC
9th Degree Grand Master Gaylord Method Kajukenbo
Full Instructor-Hartsell's Jeet Kune Do Grappling Assoc
Chief Instructor Bono's Jeet Kune Do/Kajukenbo
Champions aren't made in the gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them a desire,a dream,a vision

Offline Patrick Campbell

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Re: Must we have the helmets ?
« Reply #2 on: February 04, 2008, 09:45:44 PM »
I think that the more control we develop, the less we need to use protective equipment. Less skillful practioners need adequate protective gear.  Skillful blackbelts look like they are killing each other but they are controlling the strikes. I think that using protective gear is otherwise important for most practioners when there is full-contact involved.  The only protective gear I like to wear is a protective cup and mouth piece.

Respectfully,

Sifu Pat

I often wonder if people tend to be more careful when not wearing equipment.  I know in boxing sparring when not wearing helmet the students tend to box more skillfully and not throw wild punches...
Patrick "Kaponookalani" Campbell, Ph.D.
KAJUKENBO - Professor Kai Li - ETS / HKA
Kenpo - SGM Rick Alemany 
DZR Jujitsu - ETS / AJI
BJJ - ETS / USFBJJ / Master Joe Moreira
Combat Sambo - ETS / GCA / GM Alan New 
JKD / Kun Tao - ETS / IMB / G. Savelli
Royal Hawaiian Lua - ETS PA / Olohe Eli

Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re: Must we have the helmets ?
« Reply #3 on: February 04, 2008, 10:09:07 PM »
I think that the more control we develop, the less we need to use protective equipment. Less skillful practioners need adequate protective gear.  Skillful blackbelts look like they are killing each other but they are controlling the strikes. I think that using protective gear is otherwise important for most practioners when there is full-contact involved.  The only protective gear I like to wear is a protective cup and mouth piece.

I'd agree for the most part.  However, the same can be said of groin protection, which is why many martial arts groups don't need to wear any.  I know that in weapons sparring, foregoing the protective equipment usually results in the reduction of targets actually struck, as well as the intensity at which they are struck.  Consider boxing gloves.  If they serve to primarily protect the hand, what does that say about more realistic, bare knuckles boxing ?
"We do not condone the use of a toilet seat as a deadly weapon"
Go Shin Jutsu Kenpo, 3rd Degree Black Belt Prof. Richard Lewis
Bono JKD/Kajukenbo, Prof. John Bono, San Jose, CA
Baltic Dog, Dog Brothers Martial Arts

Offline Patrick Campbell

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Re: Must we have the helmets ?
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2008, 07:37:30 AM »

 :)

I'll stick to the groin cup just the same, sir. I do value deez ...

Many of the grab arts and other techniques we train involve actually striking or kicking the groin and I believe that this area should be actually struck especially with beginners and novices. There are many ways to think about protection when it comes to practicing different defenses to include shin protection and chest protection and head protection. Every school is different. As long as the desired results of fighting sponteneity, muscle memory and reflex-reactionare achieved , then either way is fine with me. I have actually never trained with any protection other than a cup and mouth piece and in most instances I don't even use a mouth piece. It's not unusual for a novice to get a wild shot in somewhere and from my experience it often strikes the groin area.

I do recall a street-fight where my groin was struck rather forcefully and it didn't have the desired result. It wasn't until everything was over that I felt sick to my stomach. When it comes to less than expert fighters I opt to use the equipment.

Respectfully,

Sifu Pat

I think that the more control we develop, the less we need to use protective equipment. Less skillful practioners need adequate protective gear.  Skillful blackbelts look like they are killing each other but they are controlling the strikes. I think that using protective gear is otherwise important for most practioners when there is full-contact involved.  The only protective gear I like to wear is a protective cup and mouth piece.

I'd agree for the most part.  However, the same can be said of groin protection, which is why many martial arts groups don't need to wear any.  I know that in weapons sparring, foregoing the protective equipment usually results in the reduction of targets actually struck, as well as the intensity at which they are struck.  Consider boxing gloves.  If they serve to primarily protect the hand, what does that say about more realistic, bare knuckles boxing ?

Patrick "Kaponookalani" Campbell, Ph.D.
KAJUKENBO - Professor Kai Li - ETS / HKA
Kenpo - SGM Rick Alemany 
DZR Jujitsu - ETS / AJI
BJJ - ETS / USFBJJ / Master Joe Moreira
Combat Sambo - ETS / GCA / GM Alan New 
JKD / Kun Tao - ETS / IMB / G. Savelli
Royal Hawaiian Lua - ETS PA / Olohe Eli

Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re: Must we have the helmets ?
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2008, 12:44:21 PM »
Many of the grab arts and other techniques we train involve actually striking or kicking the groin and I believe that this area should be actually struck especially with beginners and novices.

That's exactly my point, although the thread started with a controversial title.  I'm in complete agreement that the groin should be struck a lot in practice.  If you don't train it, you won't use it.  This is evident that pretty much every competitor I've ever talked to agrees that the testicles are a weak point.  However, in class or a sport competition which allows groin strikes, few trainees make the effort to strike the groin, even in demonstration.

I do recall a street-fight where my groin was struck rather forcefully and it didn't have the desired result. It wasn't until everything was over that I felt sick to my stomach.

These incidents are always great to read about, especially your deferred pain.  Even the thought is painful.  Too many people think that striking the groin in an altercation is reliable and thus needs no practice.  As we know, it's hard to do, and situations or clothing reduce the effectiveness of the strikes.  I think a lot of the "pose and pulled" groin strike training does more harm than good. 

The over-popular groin smash in the movies has taught a generation that it is easy to walk up to a man and knee him in the nuts while he stands there and takes it.  Even a 2nd grade school boy knows that it's just not that easy.



"We do not condone the use of a toilet seat as a deadly weapon"
Go Shin Jutsu Kenpo, 3rd Degree Black Belt Prof. Richard Lewis
Bono JKD/Kajukenbo, Prof. John Bono, San Jose, CA
Baltic Dog, Dog Brothers Martial Arts

Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Must we have the helmets ?
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2008, 01:08:16 PM »
I think I have hit your groin, yes?
GM John E Bono DC
9th Degree Grand Master Gaylord Method Kajukenbo
Full Instructor-Hartsell's Jeet Kune Do Grappling Assoc
Chief Instructor Bono's Jeet Kune Do/Kajukenbo
Champions aren't made in the gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them a desire,a dream,a vision

Offline Patrick Campbell

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Re: Must we have the helmets ?
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2008, 01:57:55 PM »


Aloha Gints  :)

Not to mention the fact that the agressor may be on meth or some other combination of drugs and alcohol, may be an emotionally disturbed person(EDP), extremely irate,etc... Essentially, the street-fighter is as much about training, developing and nurturing a certain "killer-instinct" or mentality and a certain spiritual understanding that attacks the part of the agressor that keeps him alive - his very essence - call it the part that knows the right or wrong of his thoughts and actions (although not everyone has a kind of conscience, especially the mentally ill and emotionally disturbed it might seem).

There have to be other training methods beyond pounding each other, protective gear or not, that develop the kind of mentality that allows us to break bones and attack other vital areas with extreme prejudice and lethal effectiveness. I often recall being thankful after certain altercations that I did not use a level of force beyond that which was necessary and I also recall certain altercations where I was thankful that I was able to neutralize the agression with the extreme use of combat force.

I guess that what I am saying is that when we spar our brothers and sisters and others that we are being nice regardless of the level of protection we use. There must exist within any martial artist's training repetoir that which trains him/her to be meaner than the meanest attacker.

Sifu Pat



Many of the grab arts and other techniques we train involve actually striking or kicking the groin and I believe that this area should be actually struck especially with beginners and novices.

That's exactly my point, although the thread started with a controversial title.  I'm in complete agreement that the groin should be struck a lot in practice.  If you don't train it, you won't use it.  This is evident that pretty much every competitor I've ever talked to agrees that the testicles are a weak point.  However, in class or a sport competition which allows groin strikes, few trainees make the effort to strike the groin, even in demonstration.

I do recall a street-fight where my groin was struck rather forcefully and it didn't have the desired result. It wasn't until everything was over that I felt sick to my stomach.

These incidents are always great to read about, especially your deferred pain.  Even the thought is painful.  Too many people think that striking the groin in an altercation is reliable and thus needs no practice.  As we know, it's hard to do, and situations or clothing reduce the effectiveness of the strikes.  I think a lot of the "pose and pulled" groin strike training does more harm than good. 

The over-popular groin smash in the movies has taught a generation that it is easy to walk up to a man and knee him in the nuts while he stands there and takes it.  Even a 2nd grade school boy knows that it's just not that easy.




Patrick "Kaponookalani" Campbell, Ph.D.
KAJUKENBO - Professor Kai Li - ETS / HKA
Kenpo - SGM Rick Alemany 
DZR Jujitsu - ETS / AJI
BJJ - ETS / USFBJJ / Master Joe Moreira
Combat Sambo - ETS / GCA / GM Alan New 
JKD / Kun Tao - ETS / IMB / G. Savelli
Royal Hawaiian Lua - ETS PA / Olohe Eli

Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re: Must we have the helmets ?
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2008, 02:12:37 PM »
I think I have hit your groin, yes?

Prof. Bono, you have that special "nard" drill ...
"We do not condone the use of a toilet seat as a deadly weapon"
Go Shin Jutsu Kenpo, 3rd Degree Black Belt Prof. Richard Lewis
Bono JKD/Kajukenbo, Prof. John Bono, San Jose, CA
Baltic Dog, Dog Brothers Martial Arts

Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Must we have the helmets ?
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2008, 03:11:51 PM »
Yes leg and nard very effective
GM John E Bono DC
9th Degree Grand Master Gaylord Method Kajukenbo
Full Instructor-Hartsell's Jeet Kune Do Grappling Assoc
Chief Instructor Bono's Jeet Kune Do/Kajukenbo
Champions aren't made in the gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them a desire,a dream,a vision

Offline Greg Hoyt

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Re: Must we have the helmets ?
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2008, 05:16:30 PM »
Sifu Pat,

I agree.  I remember (way back when) fighting a tall guy, I threw a great right that landed square on his jaw.  I then stepped back to admire the effects.  The guy took the shot, recoiled, then re-attacked. 
Every time I feel the need to pause, I remember that butt kicking (ouch). 
We are taught to keep attacking with flow, even if we feel that we have connected with a solid strike. 
I personally train with a cup, mandatory.  My hands have been busted up so much that I usually wear MMA gloves.  When kickboxing I wear headgear and 12 oz gloves.  It just depends on what we're training that session.

Respectfully,
Sibak Greg
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Offline Patrick Campbell

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Re: Must we have the helmets ?
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2008, 05:33:27 PM »
Aloha Sibak Greg,

You are right about the flow. I suppose this is partially where the term "overkill" aptly comes from. We have to finish the fight and cannot assume anything until the agression is neutralized.

Mahalo,

Sifu Pat


Sifu Pat,

I agree.  I remember (way back when) fighting a tall guy, I threw a great right that landed square on his jaw.  I then stepped back to admire the effects.  The guy took the shot, recoiled, then re-attacked. 
Every time I feel the need to pause, I remember that butt kicking (ouch). 
We are taught to keep attacking with flow, even if we feel that we have connected with a solid strike. 
I personally train with a cup, mandatory.  My hands have been busted up so much that I usually wear MMA gloves.  When kickboxing I wear headgear and 12 oz gloves.  It just depends on what we're training that session.

Respectfully,
Sibak Greg
Patrick "Kaponookalani" Campbell, Ph.D.
KAJUKENBO - Professor Kai Li - ETS / HKA
Kenpo - SGM Rick Alemany 
DZR Jujitsu - ETS / AJI
BJJ - ETS / USFBJJ / Master Joe Moreira
Combat Sambo - ETS / GCA / GM Alan New 
JKD / Kun Tao - ETS / IMB / G. Savelli
Royal Hawaiian Lua - ETS PA / Olohe Eli