Author Topic: Spanking may lead to aggression  (Read 6389 times)

Offline Rob Poelking

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Re: Spanking may lead to aggression
« Reply #15 on: March 13, 2008, 09:26:26 PM »
I have my hands full now with a new 10 year old in my class. OMG, this kid is literally bouncing off the wall. I'm constantly on him to stop being disruptive. Now there is no way I'll get away with whacking him.  After the 2nd class I finally asked the mom if his lack of discipline is a problem in school--"yes" she said, that's why he's enrolled in the class. OK. Now, I've got a clue where the mom is coming from. So I have to be very firm with him and again, as with my own children, define the boundaries and be consistent. He's gonna be doing a lot of push ups and stance training with me until he can learn to take control of his own energies and harness and command them of his own free will.
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Offline Sifu Terry McBride

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Re: Spanking may lead to aggression
« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2008, 12:19:31 AM »
I've got a few of those kids myself.  I tell the parents your child will have awesome biceps :-).  However the "king of pushups" in my dojo, that would have never made it in a regular school setting, is my best assistant now.  I think that just as important as the pushups are, it is every bit as important to let them know when they focused or had a better day.   Now, they're striving for those thumbs up, and slowly but surely the pushups don't happen as much.
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Spanking may lead to aggression
« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2008, 12:21:41 AM »
It's amazing what a little fatigue will do to a troublesome kids......works wonders....
GM John E Bono DC
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Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re: Spanking may lead to aggression
« Reply #18 on: March 14, 2008, 12:26:34 PM »
Sigung Bono, 

Do you still have that extra-active young boy in your class?  I remember that you had him chase me around the room a few times at the start of class, and the little guy ran for ten minutes straight.   From my memories, he seemed to be a well-intentioned kid with a MAJOR oversupply of energy.  How did you deal with him?   I hope his parents didn't take the pharmaceutical route.

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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Spanking may lead to aggression
« Reply #19 on: March 14, 2008, 04:11:02 PM »
That was Esther's student and he eventually calmed down......but boy he did those first couple weeks.......
GM John E Bono DC
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Champions aren't made in the gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them a desire,a dream,a vision

Offline rockatear

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Re: Spanking may lead to aggression
« Reply #20 on: March 15, 2008, 09:25:32 PM »
It seems that society is stuck on discipline =s spanking and hitting. I don’t believe in spanking, advocate against it and didn’t do it with my sons. And if some teacher had hit my kids I’d probably have to get a lawyer because I’d be at that teacher’s throat. I was raised in the 50s and 60s and spanking was par for the course for most folks in the neighborhood. OTOH, my brother and I, like a number of kids were on the extreme and spankings were beatings and abusive.

HOWEVER: I do believe in discipline, consequences and consistency. If you say you’re going to do something if your kid acts up, then you better do it. If you’re kid acts up they need to know they have to answer to you. My kids didn’t act up in school cause they had to answer to me and their dad. And no, their dad didn’t believe in spanking them either. Heck, I was the disciplinarian in our household.

So no, I didn‚Äôt hit my kids as a regular way of disciplining them. I can count five times between the two of them when I lost control of my temper, was angry and popped them on the head or the legs.  I apologized each time, told them I was angry and should‚Äôve found a better way to handle it. The key words here are loss of control and anger‚Äîmine.

So yeah, like the father who dumped that stuff on his daughter‚Äôs lap and took away all the goodies, parents have to start getting creative and find out what works on their kids.  Deducting my older son‚Äôs allowance was a big deal for him; didn‚Äôt matter to the younger one so I had to find something else to let him know he needed to do his chores. Grounding him was effective cause he liked to hang out with his friends. There was one time my son threatened to call child protective services when he was about 13 or 14 cause he couldn‚Äôt do something and I told him if he liked I‚Äôd call them for him. I also explained what would happen to him if he did call CPS.

As far as I’m concerned, all spanking and hitting does is teach kids that’s how you solve problems—hit the person. Next thing you know, they’re grown up and they’re hitting their partners or spouse or somebody who’s getting on their nerves. Anybody who has kids has got to know that it takes a lot of work. You have to be there for them all the time. You have to take time off from work if need be. You got to know what they’re up to when they’re not at home and not at school. You got to know who their friends are and who their friend's parents are. Being a parent is having a second job if you’re not a stay-at-home mom or dad. And you got to earn their respect as soon as they know who you are cause it works both ways.

Kids look for boundaries, want the boundaries and test the boundaries. We’re supposed to set the boundaries and help them deal with whatever’s going on with them. They need outlets for their natural energy and aggression. We need to help provide it for them. For my kids it was martial arts, baseball, football, bowling, writing, designing sneakers, video games, hanging out with their friends, etc.

And BTW, Sibak Rob, feminism has done more than any other movement to stop abuse of all kinds to children, adults, the disabled, same sex and gender choice, and the elderly. If a man feels “castrated” by a woman sticking up for her rights and those who are targeted because they are perceived as “less than”, maybe he ought to consider just what a man is. And besides, men don’t have a monopoly on burping, farting, drinking and aggression.

with respect,
Shirley Phelps, blue blelt, Hand to Hand Kajukenbo Self-Defense Center, Oakland, CA, www.handtohandkajukenbo.com, Gaylord Method, Chief Head Instructors:  Sifus Jen Resnick and Sonya Richardson

Offline Danjo

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Re: Spanking may lead to aggression
« Reply #21 on: March 16, 2008, 01:48:13 PM »
I don't for a minute believe that spanking teaches kids that the only way to solve a problem is to hit them any more than I believe that shooting someone in self defense teaches people that the only way to solve problems is to shoot them. Human beings are far more complex and sophisticated than that. We are able to recognize justice from revenge and punishment from abuse. Punishment is when you deserve what you got, and abuse isn't.

While I can understand the feelings of those that were abused who are revolted by any sort of physical punishment, it is a perpetuation of that abuse to the subsequent generations to eliminate something that is effective because it was mis-applied in your case. Spanking has it's place. It's by no means the solution to every problem, but sometimes it's the only one that works well.

As to feminism; it had it's good points when it corrected certain societal injustices such as keeping women at the status of children in the suburbs and locking them out of certain careers etc. But like any movement it also went too far when certain elements took it over and it eventually caused a backlash by the very people it was designed to help: Women. Camille Paglia and others have voiced eloquent cirticisms of the movement and what it became by the late 1970's that make good reading for anyone that is intellectually honest.
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Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re: Spanking may lead to aggression
« Reply #22 on: March 16, 2008, 03:01:31 PM »
Thank you for writing that essay on your own experiences with raising children, Shirley.  That was great.  I have a five month-old  and am wondering how I will be raising him.  I was spanked rarely, but other physical methods such as a hair-pulling and pinching were used weekly.  Though, 99.9% of the infractions were speaking English at home as my family was going to great effort to preserve their heritage.

To continue the debate, if the logical extension that spanking teaches children that hitting people is the way to solve problems.  Why not make the extension to a parent raising their voice (yelling at people) is the way to solve problems?  Or withholding allowance (withholding a paycheck to a work subordinate) is a better way?  Or that by rewarding children with money or buying them toys for good behavior (bribery) is the way of the world.  In today's climate, pharmaceutical programs seem popular.  Honestly, I think that reasonable spanking teaches children simply that reasonable spanking will also be an effective method of discipline for them as well.

And BTW, Sibak Rob, feminism has done more than any other movement to stop abuse of all kinds to children, adults, the disabled, same sex and gender choice, and the elderly. If a man feels “castrated” by a woman sticking up for her rights and those who are targeted because they are perceived as “less than”, maybe he ought to consider just what a man is.

Today, the desirable hubby is the obedient metrosexual, enforced by the gender-specific laws and regulations that have done a great job of reducing domestic abuse against women but have also made it nearly impossible for a man to get help.  Domestic abuse against a man is considered hilarious with the uniform assumption that he "deserved it" - most likely because he is an inadequate financial provider.  Here are a couple of articles the will bring a broad smile to everyone's face.

Woman sets fire to ex-husband's da kine
Wed Aug 22, 2007
http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSL2259151320070822

In the "Home / Entertainment / Odd News" section :
Husband killed for 'not washing feet'
http://www.china.org.cn/entertainment/2008-03/13/content_12501046.htm

False allegations of any kind of abuse are enough to ruin a career or result in jail time.  For the same infractions (e.g. murder of a spouse), women are serving shorter, lighter sentences.  Given that 95% of child custody is awarded to women, any legal complaints that result in separation of the couple also result in removing the children from the man's life while still having to pay for them.  Any accusation of child abuse will ruin a man's career, yet most of the child abuse, be it neglect or assault, is delivered by women.   Women aren't serving life sentences for killing their children, be it by drowning, stoning or SIDS.  It is still taboo to punish a criminal mother or wife.  I believe that is some of what Rob is talking about.  I'm all for most of the women's movement, but the current body of laws is due for a major overhaul.

"We do not condone the use of a toilet seat as a deadly weapon"
Go Shin Jutsu Kenpo, 3rd Degree Black Belt Prof. Richard Lewis
Bono JKD/Kajukenbo, Prof. John Bono, San Jose, CA
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Spanking may lead to aggression
« Reply #23 on: March 16, 2008, 04:26:57 PM »
Gints and Dan I have to agree with both of you on most of those points..abuse is abuse but this topic was discipline based......
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Champions aren't made in the gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them a desire,a dream,a vision

Offline Rob Poelking

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Re: Spanking may lead to aggression
« Reply #25 on: March 16, 2008, 06:58:21 PM »
It is still taboo to punish a criminal mother or wife.  I believe that is some of what Rob is talking about.  I'm all for most of the women's movement, but the current body of laws is due for a major overhaul.
Thank you.

Shirley, I am not of the opinion that alternatives don't exist. But different kinds in different environments need different methods. By in large, most kids get very little discipline no matter what kind a parent may settle on. So even even in the absence of corporal punishment, we still see aggression. Why?
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Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re: Spanking may lead to aggression
« Reply #26 on: March 16, 2008, 07:12:43 PM »
... this topic was discipline based ...

Right on.  My digression went too far.  Though, I thought it would be interesting to try to understand if it's the hitting part of the martial arts class is what instills the discipline.  Would a sewing class have the same effect? At home, the parents spank the kid.  In martial arts class, the kids "spank" each other, and the teacher is the supreme spanker.  I believe that the discipline from martial arts class wouldn't exist without conformal pressures of the group.  With one teacher and one unruly student, I wonder how much discipline would be instilled.  This is similar to the adult/child ratio we have at home.  Even with a teacher/student ratio, martial arts classes seem to have a better record for discipline than the public school system.  That is the part that is difficult to understand.  Does a martial arts class select for or develop discipline?  Senior martial arts students are those that have survived the selection process.  The single day or single month students are no longer there to observe.

If anyone is interested on an excellent reference the power of peer pressure over parenting, check out _The Nurture Assumption_ by Judith Rich Harris
"We do not condone the use of a toilet seat as a deadly weapon"
Go Shin Jutsu Kenpo, 3rd Degree Black Belt Prof. Richard Lewis
Bono JKD/Kajukenbo, Prof. John Bono, San Jose, CA
Baltic Dog, Dog Brothers Martial Arts