Author Topic: Question on Rank  (Read 26763 times)

Offline cgrzelewski

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Question on Rank
« on: March 18, 2008, 10:33:37 AM »
Excuse my ignorance. Can someone please explain this to me. Grand Master Bautista has a 9th degree belt.  I ran across a bio for someone named John Hackleman that says he has a 10th degree belt. It also says he developed Hawaiian Kempo. Did he give himself a 10th degree belt since he created his own style or did someone (higher?) give him his 10th degree?  I'm trying to do a book report but I need some definite answers. I e-mailed Mr. Hackleman and he asked me to call him. At the moment, I can't spend the long distance charges for a phone call. Can anyone help me?  :-\
Sibak Chris Grzelewski
Golden Pyramid Martial Arts
Kwanmukan, Kajukenbo, MMA, Iaido

Offline Rob Poelking

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Re: Question on Rank
« Reply #1 on: March 18, 2008, 11:12:33 AM »
LOL. Yeah, that's a pretty typical response from GM Hackleman; he doesn't type a whole lot. He'd rather just talk to you on the phone and he will talk your ear off. Very nice guy.
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Offline Danjo

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Re: Question on Rank
« Reply #2 on: March 18, 2008, 12:01:05 PM »
He is a tenth in Godin's Kempo and was awarded that rank by Walter Godin. Godin was awarded tenth degree by Prof. Chow (himself a 15th degree in Kempo). Prof. Chow awarded this rank to himself and no one ever told him he couldn't. Not that anyone would have had the guts to do so :)

But, these ranks are not in Kajukenbo per se. I know that both Godin and Hackleman are Kajukenbo, but I don't know what their rank was/is.
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Re: Question on Rank
« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2008, 12:07:37 PM »
He is a tenth in Godin's Kempo and was awarded that rank by Walter Godin. Godin was awarded tenth degree by Prof. Chow (himself a 15th degree in Kempo). Prof. Chow awarded this rank to himself and no one ever told him he couldn't. Not that anyone would have had the guts to do so :)

But, these ranks are not in Kajukenbo per se. I know that both Godin and Hackleman are Kajukenbo, but I don't know what their rank was/is.

"a rose by any other name would smell as sweet"

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Re: Question on Rank
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2008, 04:29:15 PM »
What do you mean?

Offline Britt

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Re: Question on Rank
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2008, 04:33:28 PM »
If GM Hackleman invited you to call him and hear his story, go ahead and spend the money to call him even if you've got to eat peanut butter sandwiches for a week.  He will indeed talk your ear off and you'll enjoy every minute of it.    :)
« Last Edit: March 19, 2008, 04:40:50 PM by Britt »
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Offline grand master hemenes

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Re: Question on Rank
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2008, 01:02:00 AM »
whats funny to me times have changed i rember when i was a young black belt in kajukenbo when you saw a 6th 7th 8th degree black belt it was something or you met the prof. now its kind of funny everybody is 9th 10th degree prof, grandmaster great great grandmaster. whats next????
i guess i liked it better in the old days.

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Offline Mitch Powell

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Re: Question on Rank
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2008, 09:15:47 AM »
Not all of the rank advancement in Kajukenbo is a bad thing. If you train and work your way up through the ranks then it's all good. As far as Gm Hackleman being a 10th degree, he took over Godin's line when Godin passed on. I work at a police department. When our chief moves on, retires, etc., we move up one of our deputy chiefs and they become chief. Same thing for Hackleman. Someone has to be at the top of the organization. So, GM Hackleman became the chief of the Godin line when Godin died.

Other ways of becomeing a 10th degree would be to create your own system or method like Sijo did. He created his own system and became, in essence, the chief.

Since Grandmaster Bautista has not created his own method, but instead teaches the method taught to him by Ahgung Ramos, he is not a 10th degree. He is a 9th degree--the highest rank you can achieve without being the head of your own system. With that being said, the Ramos line should have a 10th degree in charge of it. That system is different from the original method, wun hop kuen do, and so forth and deserves an identified leader.

Back to Grandmaster Bautista. His son Joseph has been a martial artists for at least 35 years and has as many years in the art as many of the grandmasters we have today. However, since Grandmaster Bautista is a 9th degree grandmaster, the highest level Joe can attain is professor 8th degree. Like a family that gets older, when the grand children have children of their own, the grand father becomes a great grand father. Kajukenbo is getting older and soon our grandmasters will need to become great grandmasters so that we can properly rank students like Joseph.
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Offline cgrzelewski

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Re: Question on Rank
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2008, 09:45:48 AM »
Thanks everyone. I think I have enough info to finish my report.
Thanks for the help.
Sibak Chris Grzelewski
Golden Pyramid Martial Arts
Kwanmukan, Kajukenbo, MMA, Iaido

Offline kajukine2

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Re: Question on Rank
« Reply #9 on: March 20, 2008, 11:35:16 AM »
Dont even get me started in THIS subject...LOL
My students know me as "sifu Ron" because thats WHO I am, I am THEIR direct teacher,
so how can they call me anything else, you dont call your father  Grampa do you?  Most of my students dont even know I have a professor rank, nor do they care.
I understand the reason for all this "rank explosion" ....Kajukenbo and its teachers are geting older and all the GGM and GM are trying put their liniages in order before they leave us.  I guess I'm alright with that, as long as we watch for those that "take advantage" of the old ones.















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Offline Rob Poelking

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Re: Question on Rank
« Reply #10 on: March 20, 2008, 12:12:30 PM »
I have to agree with that. I want my students to call me teacher Sigung, not because that's his rank but because he is the teacher's teacher. I in turn would prefer to call his teacher Sigung, because that's my relationship to him. That's not disrespect of rank, it IS respect of position.
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Offline Danjo

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Re: Question on Rank
« Reply #11 on: March 20, 2008, 12:43:18 PM »

"a rose by any other name would smell as sweet"

If someone calls a Daisy a Rose, does it make it a Rose? What if a huge organization of 19 people vote to call a Daisy a Rose?
« Last Edit: March 20, 2008, 12:52:16 PM by Danjo »
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Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re: Question on Rank
« Reply #12 on: March 20, 2008, 01:00:08 PM »
whats funny to me times have changed i rember when i was a young black belt in kajukenbo when you saw a 6th 7th 8th degree black belt it was something or you met the prof. now its kind of funny everybody is 9th 10th degree prof, grandmaster great great grandmaster. whats next????
i guess i liked it better in the old days.
                                                  prof. hemenes

There are numeric reasons for this.  If Kajukenbo was founded in the late 40's and it takes 40 years (guess on number) of dedication to an organization to become a 9th degree, there weren't enough people that had put in adequate time by the 80's and 90's.  As the organization grew, there were more candidates.  The San Francisco Bay Area is home to a high concentration of Kajukenbo, so there are many more candidates here.  Now, consider the increase in life expectancy, which in North America has been about ten years over our lifetime.    Great grandparents were rare in the 60's and 70's as well.   The profusion of "great" and "great great" titles mirror these changes in society at large.   Just as the USA is about to overwhelmed by the senior crisis, the world of martial arts is also experiencing this.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Life_expectancy_1950-2005.svg

There is probably a strong need for title inflation, but I think it reflects the longetivity of an organization as much as it is a response to commercial pressures.



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Re: Question on Rank
« Reply #13 on: March 20, 2008, 01:49:54 PM »
No disrespect intended by quoting Shjakespeare.  Sifu Dan had said that GM Godin was a student of the Emperados and got his black belt in Kaju.  He said that the reason he and others changed the name of the style was for financial reasons.  "A rose by any other name" would mean that he is Kaju through and through regardless of what the name of his style is called.  Or maybe I just misunderstand what Kaju is.  Great fighting style.



"a rose by any other name would smell as sweet"

If someone calls a Daisy a Rose, does it make it a Rose? What if a huge organization of 19 people vote to call a Daisy a Rose?

Obviously a daisy isn't a rose.  I don't agree with the interpretation, but I am not a black belt either so maybe I just don't what is what yet.  I was also told that we weren't supposed to discuss the Hui on this message board.  So I will ignore the second question from Danjo.  Again, no disresespect intended by the Shakespeare comment.  I have nothing but the highest respect for what our grand masters have done and what Chuck Liddell is doing in the UFC!  GO CHUCK!

Offline Danjo

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Re: Question on Rank
« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2008, 02:33:03 PM »
No disrespect intended by quoting Shjakespeare.  Sifu Dan had said that GM Godin was a student of the Emperados and got his black belt in Kaju.  He said that the reason he and others changed the name of the style was for financial reasons.  "A rose by any other name" would mean that he is Kaju through and through regardless of what the name of his style is called.  Or maybe I just misunderstand what Kaju is.  Great fighting style.



"a rose by any other name would smell as sweet"

If someone calls a Daisy a Rose, does it make it a Rose? What if a huge organization of 19 people vote to call a Daisy a Rose?

Obviously a daisy isn't a rose.  I don't agree with the interpretation, but I am not a black belt either so maybe I just don't what is what yet.  I was also told that we weren't supposed to discuss the Hui on this message board.  So I will ignore the second question from Danjo.  Again, no disresespect intended by the Shakespeare comment.  I have nothing but the highest respect for what our grand masters have done and what Chuck Liddell is doing in the UFC!  GO CHUCK!

Never said that Godin and Hackleman weren't true Kajukenbo. I said that their 10th degree ranks came via Prof. Chow, not Kajukenbo. Prof. Chow was Sijo's teacher, not the other way around.
"Rank Without Honor is Nothing."
Dan Weston
3rd Degree Black Belt under Prof. Bishop
FMAA
Don't tell me how much you honor Sijo, if you don't respect his wishes.