Author Topic: Question on Rank  (Read 26766 times)

Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Question on Rank
« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2008, 02:56:30 PM »
Gints very good point....it's true just like a new school, you have a lot of whites then yellows and so on after a long while there are a lot of upper belts training...in many ways it does show the maturity of the art.....
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Offline Danjo

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Re: Question on Rank
« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2008, 04:56:16 PM »
I knew Walter Godin personally and have watched his class at Palama.  In my mind, him and his lineage was as Kaju as anybody, although he neva actually got a blackbelt from Kajukenbo and the method he got his Professorship from Chow was questionable.  Nonetheless, I respected the man.

So what makes all those folks on the east coast that descended from Sonny Gascon any different.  We don't accept them because they haven't produced a world champ like Chuck Liddell?  Help me out with that one.

Well like you said, Godin was as Kaju as anyone you've ever seen. If you looked at the East Coast guys that got their rank from Pesare (who trained with Gascon for three months) and then got black belts in TKD and Judo, you'd know that they DON'T look as Kaju as anyone. Far from it.
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Re: Question on Rank
« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2008, 05:09:56 PM »
Sigung Groff,

The responsibility for the lack of contact between Sonny Gascon's east coast descendants and the main body of Kajukenbo should rest squarely on their shoulders.

I have practiced Kajukenbo since 1972 and since that time completed on the east coast in many tournaments, big and small. I met all sorts of people from that part of the country and they would look at the Kajukenbo patch I wore and would occasionally ask what that was, but at no time, ever, did they mention a connection to us. This includes people like Nick Cerio.

Around 1986 I started to compile a Kajukenbo Family Tree. I asked Sijo and any other old timer I met what was what. I got a lot of answers, but never the same one twice. I eventually published my results and everyone screamed about the stuff I missed. One gentleman on the east coast saw my work and contacted me about Sonny Gascon. I directed him to the Palama Settlement where he made contact with Walter Godin. Through this connection the Karazenpo Goshin Jitsu group was reborn. Many people have reconnected to their roots through them. They have maintained the distance, not us.

Most of the kenpo people on the east coast can trace their lineage to George Pesare of Rhode Island. He does not get along with most of the people he promoted. Sonny Gascon was connected to him for a while but things fell apart. George Pesare was a student of Sonny Gas in Santa Monica in the 60's.

I keep some of the key east coast players mentioned on the tree but you can't put everyone in because some schools are related to Fred Villari's Shaolin Kenpo and, I am sorry to say this, a lot of them look like they got their training from a Kmart McDojo. I have my pride too.

That's about it.

As far as the 10th degree of John Hackleman, his organization, his responsibility.

Offline grand master hemenes

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Re: Question on Rank
« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2008, 06:50:41 PM »
im not trying to step on anybodys toes. i know time is going by fast and a lot of black belts want to leave
the black belts something rank, title or what ever. but wasent nice when you said prof. and you thought of emperado, gaylord, reyes. and many more. and it took a life time to ern that title now theres guys out
there 10 years ago they just got there black belts and now there prof. lets realy think abought that. is that giveing something to there students. no its lowering the standards of kajukenbo and kajukenbo was always very hard to get you degrees it took years to go from one to the other, and ron you know that, look how long it took me and you yoshi jim williams to go from one degree to the other. so when i see black belts out there being called prof. when i was there 10 12 years ago waching them go from brown belt to 1st degree black. and now there 8th degree black belts, whats that a degree a year? if you guys get mad at me for saying this im only speaking the truth. lets stop passing titles and degrees out like a ta kwon do schools. and lets go back to the old school.


                                                      prof. hemenes
« Last Edit: March 20, 2008, 06:55:51 PM by prof.hemenes »
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Offline Kamikaze

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Re: Question on Rank
« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2008, 07:55:14 PM »
I would like to see that list!
Al Narasaki Jr.
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Offline Greg Hoyt

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Re: Question on Rank
« Reply #20 on: March 20, 2008, 08:09:24 PM »
Aloha,  
I'm pretty new to the cafe, and real new in Kajukenbo compared to most of you, but I want to jump in here....just a tad.  

First, like GM Harper says, when I have questions about linage and/or history, my first and primary source is my instructor.  After that is his instructor, and on down (or up) the line.  I'm ex-military, so I'm very familiar with the chain of command.  AND, the answers I receive from my instructor, my instructor's instructor, etc., are good enough for me.  I really don't need to go anywhere else, or ask anyone else.  If/when there are questions that my direct linage can't answer, and the issue is important enough for me to seek an answer, THEN I will contact the Kajukenbo Ohana members whom I trust to give me their version of the truth.  
Rank?  I always respect rank.  But like Professor Bishop says, it all comes out in the wash sooner or later.  I just need to keep doing all I can do for my instructor and Kajukenbo, and keep training as hard as I can, remain humble, soak up as much knowledge as I can retain, and keep putting one foot in front of the other.  

Respectfully,
Sibak Greg  
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Offline John Bishop

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Re: Question on Rank
« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2008, 01:59:10 AM »
So what makes all those folks on the east coast that descended from Sonny Gascon any different.  We don't accept them because they haven't produced a world champ like Chuck Liddell?  Help me out with that one.

Sonny Gascon broke away from Kajukenbo and created his own system "Karazenpo Goshin Jutsu". 
His student, George Pesare, took what he learned from Gascon in 3 months of training, combined it with some judo and tae kwon do training and started his own kenpo system. 
His student, Nick Cerio, combined what Pesare taught him with some training from Bill Chun, William Chow, and Ed Parker, and created "Nick Cerio's Kenpo". 
His student, Fred Villari, took what he learned from Cerio, combined it with some mysterious training under unnamed Chinese masters, and created "Shaolin Kempo". 

In the Shaolin Kempo schools of Villari and some of his spawn, it's not uncommon to have 12 year old black belt instructors.  You can sign up for the "Black Belt College" and get your black belt in 12-18 months.  Most of the course is sales training, with a little physical training mixed in. 
But if you really don't want to spend money on gas and have to attend classes, you can get Villari's home video training course.  That way you can practice in the comfort of your living room in front of your T.V.  No hard workouts, no sparring, no injuries, unless you trip over the coffee table. 
And you get to video test every 6 weeks.  Of course they do recommend that once you get your brown belt, you wait 90 days before doing your video black belt test.   
The cirriculum itself has no resemblance to any of the Kajukenbo methods I've ever seen.  Their 5 Pinans are the Okinawan Pinans that Nick Cerio adopted from a Mas Oyama book.  Their other katas were either created by George Pesare, Nick Cerio, or Fred Villari.  Their "Kempo's" and "Combo's" are also their own creations.  Their training philosophies of little to no contact sparring, easy workouts so students don't quit, and quick and easy testing dosen't resemble any Kajukenbo schools I've ever encountered.   
John Bishop  8th Degree-Original Method 
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K.S.D.I. # 478, FMAA


"You watch, once I'm gone, all the snakes will start popping their heads up!"  Sijo Emperado

sleddog

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Re: Question on Rank
« Reply #22 on: March 21, 2008, 05:38:06 AM »
It would be easy if all the descendands of Sonny Gascon were horrible. You could say "cut them off" and be done with it. But some of the students of George Pesare were the best fighters of their day. One, Roger Carpenter of Kansas, was in the top ten of his day all the time. I think he was named to the list of the 10 best of all time. Other members of the school became kickboxing world champions. A hard call.


Offline Patrick Campbell

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Re: Question on Rank
« Reply #23 on: March 21, 2008, 08:12:47 AM »
I agree, sir.

Pat

Aloha,  
I'm pretty new to the cafe, and real new in Kajukenbo compared to most of you, but I want to jump in here....just a tad.  

First, like GM Harper says, when I have questions about linage and/or history, my first and primary source is my instructor.  After that is his instructor, and on down (or up) the line.  I'm ex-military, so I'm very familiar with the chain of command.  AND, the answers I receive from my instructor, my instructor's instructor, etc., are good enough for me.  I really don't need to go anywhere else, or ask anyone else.  If/when there are questions that my direct linage can't answer, and the issue is important enough for me to seek an answer, THEN I will contact the Kajukenbo Ohana members whom I trust to give me their version of the truth.  
Rank?  I always respect rank.  But like Professor Bishop says, it all comes out in the wash sooner or later.  I just need to keep doing all I can do for my instructor and Kajukenbo, and keep training as hard as I can, remain humble, soak up as much knowledge as I can retain, and keep putting one foot in front of the other.  

Respectfully,
Sibak Greg  
Patrick "Kaponookalani" Campbell, Ph.D.
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sleddog

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Re: Question on Rank
« Reply #24 on: March 21, 2008, 09:26:06 AM »
A thing to realise here. Walter Gobin and Sonny Gascon were brothers-in-law but had separate lives in martial arts. They opened the school together under kajukenbo. Later they were visited and told about the tribute that was supposed to flow back to Hawaii. They decided to change the name instead (Karazenpo Goshin Jitsu). I got this directly from the mouth of Sonny Gascon.

Soon after Walter Godin moved back to Hawaii and later Sonny Gascon moved to Las Vegas where he worked in the gaming industry there.

Their relationship stopped at that time.

Walter Godin had a long and storied martial arts life in Hawaii. Sonny Gascon kept a low profile until a few years ago when he re-emerged as the head of Karazenpo Goshin Jitsu again. This happened before the time of the 50th anniversary event in Hawaii. So the east coast group has had a connection to Walter Godin but they are not really his direct descendants, possibly great nephews and nieces.

Offline Eugene Sedeno

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Re: Question on Rank
« Reply #25 on: March 21, 2008, 09:56:39 AM »
GM Gelinas,

As usual you are right on the money.

Eugene
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Question on Rank
« Reply #26 on: March 21, 2008, 12:01:14 PM »
Great info, I like that back ground info, I always find it interesting how things went from here to there and under what circumstance.....
GM John E Bono DC
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Offline Mitch Powell

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Re: Question on Rank
« Reply #27 on: March 21, 2008, 02:43:40 PM »
Several problems here. We can't always just listen to our teachers for our history. Some are not as informed as they could be. Some tell the story so that it paints them or their teacher(s) in the best possible light and so forth. Do your homework if it really matters to you. I have spent the last 20 years in law enforcement and EVERYONE has a different opinion about what happened, what's right, what's wrong, who's right, etc. The bottom line is people remember what they want to remember.

Time should not be the factor to use to determine rank-ability should be. What good is rank if you don't know what the hell you're doing?

More than a few Kajukenbo masters failed to attain their actual black belt prior to teaching others. Sijo had a group of students when he was a colored belt under Chow.

We have gone around and around on what Kajukenbo is. I have learned the early Ramos method from Ramos, Shin and Bautista and the original method (Reyes) version from Davis. They are similar, but different. They are both excellent vesions of Kajukenbo. I have many friends who have learned the Gaylord method. That is an excellent version of Kajukenbo. Their is a more modern version of the Ramos method, which is excellent. Then there is ch'uan fa, tum pai, wun hop Kuen do, Fi kuen, and so forth. They are all excellent versions of Kajukenbo. In order to move away from my own personal belief of what I thought Kajukenbo was, I had to realize Kajukenbo is no longer a word, but a term like king fu, which means hard work.

Just like the way kung fu has many, many different versions, Kajukenbo now has many, many different versions. In time, it will have many, many more. These versions began even in Kajukenbo's earliest years!

Perhaps the Council of Grandmasters or the Board of Advisors can help control some of the promotions that should be avoided and in turn recognize those who should be promoted. In any event, those who don't agree with the process or fail to get recognized will still find a way to become professors, grandmasters, great grandmasters and unfortunately Sijos!

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Offline Seronio_Kajukenbo

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Re: Question on Rank
« Reply #28 on: March 21, 2008, 03:30:40 PM »
Perfectly said Professor Powell!!!!!
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Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re: Question on Rank
« Reply #29 on: March 21, 2008, 03:43:49 PM »
Time should not be the factor to use to determine rank-ability should be. What good is rank if you don't know what the hell you're doing?

Well stated overll, Prof. Powell.  I didn't mean time alone but experience at a certain level of performance.  A certain amount of time is needed to prove oneself.

More than a few Kajukenbo masters failed to attain their actual black belt prior to teaching others. Sijo had a group of students when he was a colored belt under Chow.

Teaching experience is a prerequisite in many clubs for a black belt although in other cases, teachers were recruited from capable students simply because they were needed.
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