Author Topic: Why do martial artists look down on fighting events?  (Read 13309 times)

Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Why do martial artists look down on fighting events?
« Reply #30 on: May 07, 2008, 01:06:54 PM »
I have to say I had a pretty hard time following that one...
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Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re: Why do martial artists look down on fighting events?
« Reply #31 on: May 07, 2008, 01:39:53 PM »
MMA fighters often are in the same boat, they are athletes not martial arts masters because the vision of a master is someone not just with ability but also with great amounts of knowledge and experience.  Most athletes, IMO, will dominate a much older martial artist in an up-and-up fair fight.    It is only the experience and knowledge combined with ability that can give the older marital artist an edge... in other words, it is never a "fair" fight.

And herein lies the heresy.  We join a martial arts club with the expectation of becoming invincible rather than the realistic expectation of simply becoming better than the average untrained man.  One of the reasons most teachers don't fight is that they know they won't win 100% of the time.   Teachers are unfairly burdened with carrying the myth of invincibility.   Experienced students don't expect their teachers to win 100% of the time, but even so, they help by allowing their teacher to retain the dominant position of the club.  If the teacher isn't top dog, the club dies.  There are some teachers that fight/play outside of the typically over-controlled demonstration, but these teachers are the freaks of nature that Wado refers to.   My wording would be "top specimens of physical development".

Also, I think the Master Syndrome (made that term) is in effect.  Students are psychologically influenced/trained to become receptive to the club training culture and the Master himself.   An extreme example of this is that demonstration of the old Chinese master that could beat up his students without touching them in the first part of a YouTube video, and then he was quickly taken out by a punching grappler in some sort of waged fight.   I truly believe that the students were not faking the demonstration although it appeared to be fake.  I don't any any leads into investigating this phenomenon, but I've been on the receiving end while training in some martial arts.  It's more than just the teacher.  There is also peer pressure to conform at work.  Anyway, I found a source that could possibly explain this to me.  She made an analogy to using email to talk to an old farmer.   Back to the fields ...



« Last Edit: May 07, 2008, 04:09:31 PM by Gints Klimanis »
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Why do martial artists look down on fighting events?
« Reply #32 on: May 07, 2008, 02:29:27 PM »
Gints I better make sure my students are not letting me win......I better tell them to go harder on me...GT's
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Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re: Why do martial artists look down on fighting events?
« Reply #33 on: May 07, 2008, 02:34:38 PM »
Gints I better make sure my students are not letting me win......I better tell them to go harder on me...GT's

When I wrote "top specimens of development", I was including you.
"We do not condone the use of a toilet seat as a deadly weapon"
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Why do martial artists look down on fighting events?
« Reply #34 on: May 07, 2008, 02:46:35 PM »
so by specimen you don't mean in a cup for the doctor to analyze right?
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Offline Patrick Campbell

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Re: Why do martial artists look down on fighting events?
« Reply #35 on: May 07, 2008, 05:02:36 PM »
Great points, Gints.

Pat

MMA fighters often are in the same boat, they are athletes not martial arts masters because the vision of a master is someone not just with ability but also with great amounts of knowledge and experience.  Most athletes, IMO, will dominate a much older martial artist in an up-and-up fair fight.    It is only the experience and knowledge combined with ability that can give the older marital artist an edge... in other words, it is never a "fair" fight.

And herein lies the heresy.  We join a martial arts club with the expectation of becoming invincible rather than the realistic expectation of simply becoming better than the average untrained man.  One of the reasons most teachers don't fight is that they know they won't win 100% of the time.   Teachers are unfairly burdened with carrying the myth of invincibility.   Experienced students don't expect their teachers to win 100% of the time, but even so, they help by allowing their teacher to retain the dominant position of the club.  If the teacher isn't top dog, the club dies.  There are some teachers that fight/play outside of the typically over-controlled demonstration, but these teachers are the freaks of nature that Wado refers to.   My wording would be "top specimens of physical development".

Also, I think the Master Syndrome (made that term) is in effect.  Students are psychologically influenced/trained to become receptive to the club training culture and the Master himself.   An extreme example of this is that demonstration of the old Chinese master that could beat up his students without touching them in the first part of a YouTube video, and then he was quickly taken out by a punching grappler in some sort of waged fight.   I truly believe that the students were not faking the demonstration although it appeared to be fake.  I don't any any leads into investigating this phenomenon, but I've been on the receiving end while training in some martial arts.  It's more than just the teacher.  There is also peer pressure to conform at work.  Anyway, I found a source that could possibly explain this to me.  She made an analogy to using email to talk to an old farmer.   Back to the fields ...




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Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re: Why do martial artists look down on fighting events?
« Reply #36 on: May 07, 2008, 07:37:17 PM »
Olympic athletes are seldom older than in their late twenties when they compete, even more often they are teenagers or early twenties.  People have few or no issues with young athletes. 

When a person is that young, they can be a great athlete but they seldom have the amount of experience and knowledge that they will have when they are much older.

I keep going back to Wado's excellent post.  There are so many points to comment on.

I think martial artists dislike UFC-type fighters because the martial artists expect the fighting to be a display of technical talent rather than a simple test of combat in which the victor gets up and the loser doesn't.  There is some disdain for an individual's strength, endurance and will that will overcome a collection of techniques.  Perhaps this is also due to the simple fact that physical ability is the domain of the youth.  To me, this is similar to music for musicians:  it has to be technically impressive and difficult to play such that an untrained musician can't play or sing it.  The purpose of music has been altered to serve the definition of a group of elitists that becomes even more difficult to join over time.  This is similar to the martial arts clubs that continually raise the requirements of a basic instructor such that the apprenticeship is extended from the original 3-5 years to 10-20 years.  This is done by adding more and more material and changing the rules often.
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Why do martial artists look down on fighting events?
« Reply #37 on: May 07, 2008, 08:07:41 PM »
Randy Couture?
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Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re: Why do martial artists look down on fighting events?
« Reply #38 on: May 07, 2008, 08:11:58 PM »
Randy Couture?

Randy Couture is one of the very few guys that can pull off a UFC win while he's 40.  So, while we can name a few, the vast majority of champions will be much younger and at a low technical level. 
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Offline NYKaju

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Re: Why do martial artists look down on fighting events?
« Reply #39 on: May 07, 2008, 08:19:49 PM »
Quote from: Gints Klimanis
Also, I think the Master Syndrome (made that term) is in effect.  Students are psychologically influenced/trained to become receptive to the club training culture and the Master himself.

You're too late Gints. I already coined the term "Sensei Phobia" a few years back. Alas, both terms are undeniably lame. Someone think of something snazzy and scientific sounding :)
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Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re: Why do martial artists look down on fighting events?
« Reply #40 on: May 08, 2008, 12:35:32 AM »
Now I understand it better and enjoy when they go from submission to submission.  Yet that does not always happen and two guys rolling around on the matt can get boring. 

Yes, rolling around on the ground was boring to watch.  WWF made a show out of it.  Most of the other big fighting events restricted ground play.  Muay Thai would probably have included ground play if it weren't so boring to watch.  As big TV cameras dropped in price and continue to do so, you can catch the closeup action.  UFC has about ten cameras covering the fight now, compared to about 2-3 in the early days.  Now, if they would wise up and cut vertical bands in the cage in the middle and down low so that the cameras could get a good shot without the cage grating in the way as well as add 20-30 microphones around the ring, the fighting would be even more engaging. 

Now for the reason there are fewer grappling arts:  it's hard for spectators to see close up moves.  And generally, ground fighting isn't interesting to watch.   What we like about UFC is that there is stand up punching, kicking, takedowns, punches, chokes.  There is so much more to watch.

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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Why do martial artists look down on fighting events?
« Reply #41 on: May 08, 2008, 09:52:16 AM »
I think there is fewer because there are no forms and not as many variants that one can put in.  Yes there are thousands of submissions, but any one of the ground arts can lay claim to whatever they want on those.  Though those that have trained in many may know where they came from.....
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Offline Wado

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Re: Why do martial artists look down on fighting events?
« Reply #42 on: May 08, 2008, 12:40:58 PM »
Olympic athletes are seldom older than in their late twenties when they compete, even more often they are teenagers or early twenties.  People have few or no issues with young athletes. 

When a person is that young, they can be a great athlete but they seldom have the amount of experience and knowledge that they will have when they are much older.

I keep going back to Wado's excellent post.  There are so many points to comment on.

I think martial artists dislike UFC-type fighters because the martial artists expect the fighting to be a display of technical talent rather than a simple test of combat in which the victor gets up and the loser doesn't.  There is some disdain for an individual's strength, endurance and will that will overcome a collection of techniques.  Perhaps this is also due to the simple fact that physical ability is the domain of the youth.  To me, this is similar to music for musicians:  it has to be technically impressive and difficult to play such that an untrained musician can't play or sing it.  The purpose of music has been altered to serve the definition of a group of elitists that becomes even more difficult to join over time.  This is similar to the martial arts clubs that continually raise the requirements of a basic instructor such that the apprenticeship is extended from the original 3-5 years to 10-20 years.  This is done by adding more and more material and changing the rules often.


Great analogy with musicians.  And the rest of the post is right on too.

I believe the success of MMA has brought a bit of an identity crisis for many martial artists and that leads to disappointment and frustration.  This is because martial artists identify with champions.

The majority of MMA fighters are what I would consider the modern day athletes in martial arts.  This would be like what the gladiators were like at certain times in ancient Rome.  The MMA venue is what is used today in many circles and in the public to determine who are the best of the best fighters.

Now decades ago, that venue could have easily been Judo, TKD, or karate.  For instance, a martial artist could look at their karate Sensei and see a wall of trophies won in tournaments.  This would make the martial artist proud... they would identify with their Sensei as a champion and feel good about it.

Now a days, people look at that wall of trophies and go, how many of these are from winning cage fights?  The answer is often, none, zip, nada, etc.  Now the martial artist has a problem identifying with a champion.

Martial artists have an identity crisis of sorts.  Many do not have a champion in MMA that they can identify with... therefore they don't enjoy the fights as much.

On top of that, some very well known martial artists have competed in MMA and they end up losing their fights... just another blow to the ego for the people that identified with that person.

-------------
P.S.

A story of a sword master comes to mind.  There was a famous sword master that had retired and was at the time quite old when an egotistic, young and strong swordsman picked a fight with him. 

The sword master was well past his prime by many years, he had not dueled for many years.  The young swordsman would not let the old man back down.  So they went outside to duel.

The sword master knew the young swordsman would revert to his training to attack with one killing blow.  The sword master led the young swordsman under an overhanging roof and lowered his sword to the side.  The young swordsman saw the opening and drew his sword up to strike down with a powerful killing blow.

Only as the young swordsman drew his sword up to strike, his sword got stuck in the overhanging roof above.  The old sword master cut the young swordsman down... killing him.  Then the old sword master disappeared into the darkness of night.
« Last Edit: May 08, 2008, 12:42:30 PM by Wado »
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Why do martial artists look down on fighting events?
« Reply #43 on: May 08, 2008, 12:45:33 PM »
Age and deceit over youth and skill....again ;D
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Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re: Why do martial artists look down on fighting events?
« Reply #44 on: May 08, 2008, 01:57:33 PM »
Now a days, people look at that wall of trophies and go, how many of these are from winning cage fights?  The answer is often, none, zip, nada, etc.  Now the martial artist has a problem identifying with a champion.

Agreed.  Religion solved this with an invisible supreme being.  Aikido solved this problem with a dead founder and built a cult following.  There are some videos of O Sensei throwing people around, but even most of those ukes are too old to be practicing and thus challenged.  Anyway, I like the role of the coach.  They know how to train and head an organization.  However, they don't have to claim to be the best fighter over their entire lives.  There are lots of martial arts teachers that haven't been in any real fights and any realistic tournament fighting that are talking about the deadliness of techniques.  Even being on the losing side of a technique is experience.
"We do not condone the use of a toilet seat as a deadly weapon"
Go Shin Jutsu Kenpo, 3rd Degree Black Belt Prof. Richard Lewis
Bono JKD/Kajukenbo, Prof. John Bono, San Jose, CA
Baltic Dog, Dog Brothers Martial Arts