Author Topic: Why do martial artists look down on fighting events?  (Read 13391 times)

Offline Gints Klimanis

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Why do martial artists look down on fighting events?
« on: May 06, 2008, 11:08:30 AM »
Why are there so many negative comments on the skill level of UFC, Pride and other events such as Dog Brothers?  Is there an actual gap between the skill of the participants and their teachers?  Or, are too many teachers out of touch with how fighting looks?
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Offline NYKaju

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Re: Why do martial artists look down on fighting events?
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2008, 11:27:02 AM »
Why are there so many negative comments on the skill level of UFC, Pride and other events such as Dog Brothers?  Is there an actual gap between the skill of the participants and their teachers?  Or, are too many teachers out of touch with how fighting looks?


MMA fighters are whiny pre-madonnas who couldn't hack it in a real street fight because they wouldn't be prepared for engaging eye-gouging, throat striking, groin kicking, and feces flinging multiple attackers, all while fighting on broken glass riddled pavement after a long fatigue inducing day at work.......but I totally could....seriously....listen to the booming fury of my "Kiah" and fear the depth of my horse stance.
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Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re: Why do martial artists look down on fighting events?
« Reply #2 on: May 06, 2008, 12:13:25 PM »
James, I'm totally with your explanation.   Did fighting actually look different with club-imposed stylization of techniques?  There were fewer mats and no cage borders, so perhaps the fighting was different due to the environment.

I'm hearing the original hits "Lucky Star" and "Borderline".
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Offline Wado

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Re: Why do martial artists look down on fighting events?
« Reply #3 on: May 06, 2008, 01:23:52 PM »
Why are there so many negative comments on the skill level of UFC, Pride and other events such as Dog Brothers?  Is there an actual gap between the skill of the participants and their teachers?  Or, are too many teachers out of touch with how fighting looks?


Television.  It is easy to see faults on video, but when training face-to-face there is a lot more respect.  Most of the MMA fighters are quite young in martial arts terms.  A few years of training MMA on top of maybe a few years of something else... many cases even less time total training.  Outside of MMA, very few martial artists probably have trained with these people.

Conversely, you have martial artists that have been around for many decades and have trained with hundreds or thousands of others... word gets around.

I think of it this way, how many martial artists that have been training only a few years have that much recognition for their skill?  I would say there are exceptions but the general rule is they are thought of as too inexperienced still. 

I would say because of television, we are only seeing one aspect of a person, but if there was more face-to-face training then there wouldn't be as much bad mouthing.
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Offline NYKaju

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Re: Why do martial artists look down on fighting events?
« Reply #4 on: May 06, 2008, 02:17:25 PM »
Why are there so many negative comments on the skill level of UFC, Pride and other events such as Dog Brothers?  Is there an actual gap between the skill of the participants and their teachers?  Or, are too many teachers out of touch with how fighting looks?


Television.  It is easy to see faults on video, but when training face-to-face there is a lot more respect.  Most of the MMA fighters are quite young in martial arts terms.  A few years of training MMA on top of maybe a few years of something else... many cases even less time total training.  Outside of MMA, very few martial artists probably have trained with these people.

Conversely, you have martial artists that have been around for many decades and have trained with hundreds or thousands of others... word gets around.

I think of it this way, how many martial artists that have been training only a few years have that much recognition for their skill?  I would say there are exceptions but the general rule is they are thought of as too inexperienced still. 

I would say because of television, we are only seeing one aspect of a person, but if there was more face-to-face training then there wouldn't be as much bad mouthing.

Good points on terms of age and time training. But For every superstar 20-something prodigy in the cage, there's a vastly experienced coach behind him that I'm sure that fighter has no problem attributing his success to. Eventually that kid is gonna be older, out of the fight game, and perhaps running a camp of his own. Just like how all other Martial Arts evolve, and grow, mixed gyms will do the same with their families of striking and grappling instructors working side by side to make the best fighters they can teach.
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Offline Kenpo_85

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Re: Why do martial artists look down on fighting events?
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2008, 02:57:55 PM »
For me I think it has to do with what is promised vs. what is delivered. I find it insulting that so many of these guys are touted to be the best in the world, and/or some of the best fighters ever. I truly believe with all my heart that Professor Chow, Sijo Emperado, Choki Motobu, and Mas Oyama (as well as thousands of men who came before them), and possibly many students of the aforementioned instructors, would have no problem mopping the floor with any MMA fighter that you threw at them while they were in their prime, and possibly even well after they had left their prime! I'm guessing that although Miyamoto Musashi was known to be a great swordsman, I'll bet you would be tough pressed to find somebody who could beat the man hand to hand combat, if you could find anyone at all!

I don't believe there are currently any men equivalent or capable of the feats that the above mentioned men have accomplished, due to the softened training styles, and cultural differences that make people unwilling to work as hard at developing their arts as they did at the time. Despite this, I do believe that there are guys in the world who are still extremely talented, but you and I probably don't know who they are because they have chosen to use their arts in a different manner. When I hear a person or a group of people talked up as being incredible fighters, then I want to see something absolutely incredible. If my expectations are not met, then I can still appreciate the hard work and conditioning these guys put in and I can respect the physical and mental toughness of these men, but I still lose interest and I honestly believe it's because of my expectations.

To sum it up, I lose interest in many competitive fighting events and organizations because I am promised great and spectacular material, but instead I am delivered good material, and even average material in certain areas (i.e. the stand up skills of many of the men).
« Last Edit: May 06, 2008, 03:02:30 PM by Kenpo_85 »

Offline NYKaju

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Re: Why do martial artists look down on fighting events?
« Reply #6 on: May 06, 2008, 03:16:41 PM »
For me I think it has to do with what is promised vs. what is delivered. I find it insulting that so many of these guys are touted to be the best in the world, and/or some of the best fighters ever. I truly believe with all my heart that Professor Chow, Sijo Emperado, Choki Motobu, and Mas Oyama (as well as thousands of men who came before them), and possibly many students of the aforementioned instructors, would have no problem mopping the floor with any MMA fighter that you threw at them while they were in their prime, and possibly even well after they had left their prime! I'm guessing that although Miyamoto Musashi was known to be a great swordsman, I'll bet you would be tough pressed to find somebody who could beat the man hand to hand combat, if you could find anyone at all!

All arguments aside about the watering down and influx of hobbyist MA schools founded on the creations of those great men, do you honestly feel that the knowledge of fighting, and level of skill then was that much greater than it is now? Today, when anything and everything that we wish to put to the test, IS put to the test for all the world to see. Where barriers of all kinds whether they be mountains, oceans or even languages have been smashed, thus removing the mythical mystique and outlandish claims of the martial arts? And most importantly, do you honestly believe Mas Oyama beat up a healthy aggravated bull with his bare hands?


Quote
I don't believe there are currently any men equivalent or capable of the feats that the above mentioned men have accomplished, due to the softened training styles, and cultural differences that make people unwilling to work as hard at developing their arts as they did at the time.

Softened training styles? Or smarter training styles? You can punch rocks, do kata under waterfalls, and carry buckets all you want, but the sport specific training we have today in regards to nutrition, strength, exercise, and of course technical martial arts training, is something at a level we've never had before. Sure there were healthy fit and talented fighters, but to have so many, and allow them to test themselves against others of equal or greater skill for the whole world to see is just something revolutionary, that only in todays day and age could we accomplish. We have fighters today who spend every waking day pushing themselves harder, with no other distractions in life, to be the most talented fighter they can be. That is truly something.

Quote
Despite this, I do believe that there are guys in the world who are still extremely talented, but you and I probably don't know who they are because they have chosen to use their arts in a different manner.

I agree, but if they train in seclusion, they are more than likely the greatest fish in their small pond. You only grow to the point of being just better than the next best person you train with. By allowing fighters compete and train on an international level, the level of skill IMO has grown exponentially.

Quote
When I hear a person or a group of people talked up as being incredible fighters, then I want to see something absolutely incredible. If my expectations are not met, then I can still appreciate the hard work and conditioning these guys put in and I can respect the physical and mental toughness of these men, but I still lose interest and I honestly believe it's because of my expectations.

To sum it up, I lose interest in many competitive fighting events and organizations because I am promised great and spectacular material, but instead I am delivered good material, and even average material in certain areas (i.e. the stand up skills of many of the men).

Maybe fighting isn't as incredible as you hoped it would be?
Sensei/Coach James Mayors
Ronin Martial Arts
Kajukenbo under Dan Tyrrell
BJJ under Matt Serra
Judo under Mark Staniszewski
"You don't rise to the level of your expectations, you fall to the level of your training"

Offline Patrick Campbell

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Re: Why do martial artists look down on fighting events?
« Reply #7 on: May 06, 2008, 03:33:34 PM »
 
To sum it up, I lose interest in many competitive fighting events and organizations because I am promised great and spectacular material, but instead I am delivered good material, and even average material in certain areas (i.e. the stand up skills of many of the men).
[/quote]

Aloha sir,

      A martial artist's mind, spirit and skills are a in a constant state of refinement. We seek perfection within ourselves never quite achieving it yet constantly refining the process. No one can teach this refinement - it is personal. To me everything is personal. We can learn something new everyday. Something from here, something from there. We "absorb what is useful" to us. Ultimately, however, it is the mind of the fighter and his/her fighting spirit that defines him/her in all instances; even those that don't involve fighting. I expect nothing from no one except myself.

     A lifetime of learning and teaching represents the social nature of what we do, yet the true meaning and effectivemess of it all can only be known by the warrior him/herself.  Whether he is a MMA fighter or not. This inner truth transcends all things. It determines who we are in every instance of life. To me, it is the warrior's inner quest to discover and understand this truth that ultimately defines him/her. We can not discover this in a thousand techniques or from a thousand teachers - it can only be discovered within ourselves through hardwork over time  (Kung Fu). The teachers and techniques are only "fingers pointing at the moon" in these regards. It's really about our own personal journey and those special people we meet along the way.

Pat

 
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Why do martial artists look down on fighting events?
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2008, 04:03:59 PM »
I love watching a great fight by skilled opponents...  it is true that most guys in MMA right now are beginners trying to make a living and rushing themselves to fight for that purpose...some guys out there have trained their entire lives and it reflects in their fighting and skill sets.  I would guess some of those old time warriors were fierce...I think the training is much better now, but some like Musashi lived his life to fight in life or death matches, that brings an entirely different level then fighting under rules and then going out for a beer.

 You don't want to fight the skilled guy that has nothing to lose...and that never showers....
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Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re: Why do martial artists look down on fighting events?
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2008, 05:40:18 PM »
Many great points in this thread.  I'd like to cover other issues, such as camera artifacts and viewing.

People in general don't like the way they look on video.  For sports in general, there are recording artifacts that blur the motion and make movements appear slower than they are in real life.   The explanation is that the picture is updated 30 times/second, which blurs motion out during that time interval.  I'd experimented with a faster video shutter speed (1/250 second), and the same people look blazingly fast due to a strobing effects.  We have seen this effect under strobe lighting.  This is artificial because a lot of the motion has actually been deleted.   My point is that camera technology affects our perception of the movements.

Another issue is that a TVs are smaller than life for human-sized objects.  The same motion that covers the width of the ring covers a few feet on a TV.  Even if objects are moving quickly, they are covering a smaller TV distance, and thus are perceived slower.  Great examples are tennis and baseball.  You can follow a game on TV.  If you try to swing back at a 120 MPH serve or 100MPH pitch, it will whiz by before you've moved.

Also, most technical martial artists are impressed by blazingly fast moves that aren't slowed down by an actual target.  Real fighters not only have to hit targets, but they have to hit them multiple times.  A tired fighter will obviously look less crisp than a fresh guy in new kung fu shoes.



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Offline Britt

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Re: Why do martial artists look down on fighting events?
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2008, 05:41:54 PM »
Why do I look down on fighting events?  Usually it's because I've got crappy seats.  ;D
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Offline Kenpo_85

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Re: Why do martial artists look down on fighting events?
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2008, 05:44:25 PM »
All arguments aside about the watering down and influx of hobbyist MA schools founded on the creations of those great men, do you honestly feel that the knowledge of fighting, and level of skill then was that much greater than it is now? Today, when anything and everything that we wish to put to the test, IS put to the test for all the world to see. Where barriers of all kinds whether they be mountains, oceans or even languages have been smashed, thus removing the mythical mystique and outlandish claims of the martial arts? And most importantly, do you honestly believe Mas Oyama beat up a healthy aggravated bull with his bare hands?

I feel that the knowledge and skill is much less. People back then trained as much as their schedules allowed. That WAS their life, not just a part of it. That is not a modern American way of thinking... or any kind of Western Civilization for that matter. What you argue, about anything and everything being put to the test, I think has made many advancements in the martial arts. I think that it has strengthened the arts, but the fighters are the weak points. I place my money on the guy who trains 8 hours per day in an inferior art, rather than the guy who trains 3 hours per week in the superior art.

Yes, I do believe that Mas Oyama killed bulls, but only because I personally know someone who watched him do it, and I have seen video clips of it! He killed over 50 bulls, and although a legend like that could have been fabricated in ancient times, there is enough modern evidence and people who saw him do it that I do not believe that claims like that could not be fabricated in front of massive modern day audiences. Even Ed Parker traveled to Mexico to watch Mas Oyama fight a bull.


Softened training styles? Or smarter training styles? You can punch rocks, do kata under waterfalls, and carry buckets all you want, but the sport specific training we have today in regards to nutrition, strength, exercise, and of course technical martial arts training, is something at a level we've never had before. Sure there were healthy fit and talented fighters, but to have so many, and allow them to test themselves against others of equal or greater skill for the whole world to see is just something revolutionary, that only in todays day and age could we accomplish. We have fighters today who spend every waking day pushing themselves harder, with no other distractions in life, to be the most talented fighter they can be. That is truly something.

I truly mean softened. There is much debate over the long term effects of using a makiwara, however I've yet do see anybody claim that they are not effective. I'm speaking of men who would use the makiwara hours a day, and train their arts hours a day, and get hit hard enough while ukiing that it would shatter the bones of unconditioned bodies. The early guys in Hawaii could break an opponent's arms with a forearm strike. There are plenty of modern guys who can make others' arms ache with their forearm strikes (ANYBODY who has been training for more than a few months should be able to accomplish this), but how many do you know that can actually BREAK an opponent's arms with them (and I'm not talking about striking against an extended joint or even having the opponent's wrist secured)? The softer training, as well as the fact that society is not as rough, so people do not grow up street fighting as much, is the reason that we will never have another martial artist who is the equivalent of Professor Chow, or Sijo Emperado, IMO.

Offline Jason Goldsmith

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Re: Why do martial artists look down on fighting events?
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2008, 06:01:33 PM »


I feel that the knowledge and skill is much less. People back then trained as much as their schedules allowed. That WAS their life, not just a part of it. That is not a modern American way of thinking... or any kind of Western Civilization for that matter. What you argue, about anything and everything being put to the test, I think has made many advancements in the martial arts. I think that it has strengthened the arts, but the fighters are the weak points. I place my money on the guy who trains 8 hours per day in an inferior art, rather than the guy who trains 3 hours per week in the superior art.

Yes, I do believe that Mas Oyama killed bulls, but only because I personally know someone who watched him do it, and I have seen video clips of it! He killed over 50 bulls, and although a legend like that could have been fabricated in ancient times, there is enough modern evidence and people who saw him do it that I do not believe that claims like that could not be fabricated in front of massive modern day audiences. Even Ed Parker traveled to Mexico to watch Mas Oyama fight a bull.

I truly mean softened. There is much debate over the long term effects of using a makiwara, however I've yet do see anybody claim that they are not effective. I'm speaking of men who would use the makiwara hours a day, and train their arts hours a day, and get hit hard enough while ukiing that it would shatter the bones of unconditioned bodies. The early guys in Hawaii could break an opponent's arms with a forearm strike. There are plenty of modern guys who can make others' arms ache with their forearm strikes (ANYBODY who has been training for more than a few months should be able to accomplish this), but how many do you know that can actually BREAK an opponent's arms with them (and I'm not talking about striking against an extended joint or even having the opponent's wrist secured)? The softer training, as well as the fact that society is not as rough, so people do not grow up street fighting as much, is the reason that we will never have another martial artist who is the equivalent of Professor Chow, or Sijo Emperado, IMO.

I think James' point, and one that I agree with, is that the top MMA fighters train 8+ hours a day, and secondly that the modern training techniques and sports science employed make those 8 hours superior to what people in the past have done. 

As for being able to break an opponent's arm limb with a block, that is still quite possible.  In addition to several Kaju GMs I can think of off the top of my head, it happens in MMA fights too.  http://youtube.com/watch?v=f4GynDFyEVY is a great example.
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Offline NYKaju

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Re: Why do martial artists look down on fighting events?
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2008, 06:04:25 PM »
As for being able to break an opponent's arm limb with a block, that is still quite possible.  In addition to several Kaju GMs I can think of off the top of my head, it happens in MMA fights too.  http://youtube.com/watch?v=f4GynDFyEVY is a great example.

Calcium supplements = good for you

You're just lovin that vid lately aren't ya Jason? 3rd time I've watched it today because of you ;)
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Offline Jason Goldsmith

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Re: Why do martial artists look down on fighting events?
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2008, 06:14:32 PM »


Calcium supplements = good for you


Actually, too much calcium can increase your risk of prostate cancer, I believe.  Everything in moderation.
Sifu Jason Goldsmith
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Under GM Al Dacascos
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