Author Topic: "Flunking Students": How do you do it?  (Read 17050 times)

Offline MildSeven

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Re: "Flunking Students": How do you do it?
« Reply #15 on: April 09, 2003, 04:37:13 PM »
Quote
In our adult class some of the students have got into the habbit of calling me and some of the other black belts that drop in now and then by there first names. Not on the main floor but before or after class. I think it all is related, a lack of proper respect for the position we hold and demonstration of a poor attitude.

I think that requiring formal reference to a martial arts title outside of the dojo is simply standing on formality.  Showing respect doesn't mean that you always use a title.  I'm sure that if it were required of me, I could show far more disrespect using a person's earned rank/title than by addressing them with their first name.

The only reason I wanted to share my opinion is because you mention specifically that this is happening in your adult class.  Adults are expected to treat each other decently and should (common sense prevaling) know when and when not to break formality.  Before and after class and off the main dojo floor seem like acceptable places for casual interaction unless you run your school like a military organization where rank is always in effect.

Reminding children to show the proper respect fo their elders and teachers is a different discussion altogether  ;)

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The student in question here is so competitive that he wants to be seen as an authority( pretty much on any subject that might come up) even though he is a yellow belt. The type that always has to interject his opinion in class. He must think that reffering to us this way brings our levels closer together. I am not sure.

Sounds like you have a child in an adult's body... or maybe just an over eager student.  Have you dished out any punishments for speaking out of turn in class or if he argues with the instructors?  A task of 50 pushups once or twice will quickly get the message across to *any* student that they have broken a spoken or unspoken rule of conduct without having to get into a "I'm an instructor so respect me" type of discussion.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »

Jon Pack

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Re: "Flunking Students": How do you do it?
« Reply #16 on: April 09, 2003, 08:33:44 PM »
Boy you hit he nail on head! A child in a grown ups body.
 
I do state from time to time, usually in the intro lessons that I prefer to be on a first name basis outside the school, but it is a matter of etiquitte to refer to your instructor properly in and around the school. This and the 4'x6' sign with the expectations clearly posted makes me wonder if they will ever get it!
It was great to have one of the children call the adult student on this issue in between the classes. You mean Sir or Mr. Pack don't you? I just had to smile and say to myself, yes!

No, to answer your question I have not and don't hand out punishments to often in the adult class. Usually everybody pays and we all grind it out.


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »

Offline Sifu Terry McBride

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Re: "Flunking Students": How do you do it?
« Reply #17 on: April 09, 2003, 11:12:35 PM »
Excellent discussion and sharing of ideas.  I do my best to make sure everyone is ready before testing, and as someone noted earlier, part of the test is what you've been seeing in class for the past couple of months.  I have pretested and held some students from going up for their belt.  Some I have forced a date on to get them off their butt and get motivated.  

Regarding the respect issue - on kids, haven't you noticed there is little respect in children nowadays.  Parents are stressed out in life and don't seem to have the time to teach it.  Ask your parents and I'll bet 90% will say it was so thier child would learn respect.  A couple of weeks ago I had a couple of boys, brothers, messing around with their belts.  They were warned to treat them with respect and one did pushups.  When he came off the floor, his mom asked him to do something and he back talked her, I had him do more pushups.  As their getting ready to leave, Mom asked him to do something again and he backtalked her again.  I told him  to give me his belt, he gave it to his brother who proceeded to mess with his belt and backtalk his mom.  So I took both belts, shook them up but good.

The next class I had all of them come into my office, I asked them why I took their belts.  They admitted they weren't treating them with respect which was true, but what was the other reason I said.  They honestly didn't know.  I told them it was because they treated their mom without respect.  It finally got through to them.  I asked Mom if she understood what I did, she said she didn't even notice the kids backtalking.  Our lives are just too nuts, most folks don't think to teach their kids respect they're just trying to make it through the day with their sanity.

Adults - your next lower belt should speak in no uncertain terms to your yellow belt.  Since I'm a Mom, I can give the "Mother look", you know, the one that laser beams through metal.  They'll usually get the idea, if not then my 1st degree blackbelt or green belt will speak to the student to let him know what is expected.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »
Terry McBride, 5th degree under Professor Joel Purvis, under Grandmaster Emil Bautista
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Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re: "Flunking Students": How do you do it?
« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2003, 12:08:11 AM »
Jon Pack
"I would never have referred to my instructor by anything but sir or Mr./Master and his last name. He never insisted I do so I just did! Commanding respect and demanding respect are totally different. "

I do the same.  However, I'm not sure that I would
do that if my parents and their society hadn't taught
me that custom.  On the other side, junior titles
such as "Master" and "Miss" were largely dropped by
the previous generation.  When was the last time
you ever wrote a letter to a junior using those
titles? If the custom is not taught and
reinforced by example, it will die quickly.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »
"We do not condone the use of a toilet seat as a deadly weapon"
Go Shin Jutsu Kenpo, 3rd Degree Black Belt Prof. Richard Lewis
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adacas

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Re: "Flunking Students": How do you do it?
« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2003, 01:47:31 PM »
I really am a nerd at heart.  I love school and its a challenge for me.  When it comes to addressing my teachers if I know their last name I will address them as Mr. or Ms. so and so.  I do this even outside of class as a sign of respect although many of them tell that it is okay to use their first name I just can't get out of the habit.  I respect my teachers and even though I am an adult as they are I do not consider them my equals.  I place then on a higher plane of existence simply because I am the student.  Until I receive my degree or reach their level of achievement will I ever begin to think of myself as being their equal.  Many of my teachers have PhDs.  They earned the right to be called doctors.  How can I disrespect their hard work by calling them Ed, Frank or Christina when I as a student am supposed to look up to them.  I don't know where I picked up my habits but I do know that they are good ones.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »

Karazenpo

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Re: "Flunking Students": How do you do it?
« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2003, 02:02:46 PM »
I have a different viewpoint on that. The respect thing goes without question. However, I tell my students that the difference between myself and them is that I'm the 'oldest' student. I've committed & dedicated myself longer to this art of kempo, more 'blood, sweat & tears' and I'm committing myself to passing it on to you so that you may do the same, other than that I am no different or better than you.......that is our only difference and from that comes the respect! I also remind them of the 'old military cliche', "rank is something you wear, respect is something you earn'. I have met or in some cases heard of martial artists who have 'dishonored' the high ranks they wear! ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »

Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re: "Flunking Students": How do you do it?
« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2003, 04:27:39 PM »
There are many ways to show respect above and beyond titles.  There are many traditions that are
common to particular cultures and some that are
particular to the club.  Many teachers ask to be
addressed by first name, so I think it is best to
address the teacher in the manner they prefer.
Personally, I'm one for upholding the older
teacher-students traditions, at least those that
were taught to me.  However, it is quite
worthless to find disrespect in unintended actions.  
The traditions in this country
are changing.  Often, what you present as
your "blood, sweat, and tears" is taken for
granted.   Many students don't understand this
until it is taken away.  Likewise, many instructors
don't understand the voluntary nature of their
students.

Here's a modern example of a tradition that I
predict will change:  the handshake.  Let's
talk about that.  In the past, blood exchanges
sealed a bond.  We've all heard about
tying up the severed thumbs.  Clearly, that
tradition has disappeared.  Humans have
always shared their environment with
communicable diseases.  Would you refuse
a handshake from someone with a known
communicable disease ?  Are they disrespectful to
your well-being by offering you their hand ?
What if we ratchet that down one notch to
commuting a cold?  Is it disrespectful for
a martial arts student or corporate employee
to show up for practice/work with a communicable
disease ?  We all know about the cold that
"goes around."  An entire week of productivity,
be it professional or martial arts, is lost due to
an illness.  In that context, isn't a handshake
disrespectful ?  In the past, when the nature
of disease communication was not known,
blood and sweat were mixed.   Today,
sweat is mixed, but blood is avoided.

I raise the point of the handshake because
our club handshakes before and after every
class.  Often, someone shows up ill only to
watch the class.  However, they are totally
involved with the handshake ritual.  Out
of respect, the hands are shaken.  Then,
the class is decimated for the next week.

What do you think?


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »
"We do not condone the use of a toilet seat as a deadly weapon"
Go Shin Jutsu Kenpo, 3rd Degree Black Belt Prof. Richard Lewis
Bono JKD/Kajukenbo, Prof. John Bono, San Jose, CA
Baltic Dog, Dog Brothers Martial Arts

adacas

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Re: "Flunking Students": How do you do it?
« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2003, 04:52:09 PM »
You know I didn't even think of it like that.  I guess like the yin and yang there is always a good and bad side to everything.  Handshakes are a sign of respect but if the person is sick and inadvertantly gets other people sick I don't see it as a sign of disrespect as long as it was inadvertant.  I guess though you could say that he knew he was sick and so should not have engaged in the ritual at all.  I think the japanese have a good thing going with the bow.  In feudal japan exposing the top of your head to another person especially a samurai was a deep sign of respect and trust.  Especially since a samurai was more than capable of lobbing off your head and leaving you with a stub before you stood back up.  Bowing would also solve the whole problem with physical contact.  No touch, no sick.  I have to say that I have a problem with this.  Bowing seems a little impersonal to me as compared to a handshake.  I have to admit though that I am a hugger as well.  I'm also not very germophobic.  I don't get sick real easy.   ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »

Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re: "Flunking Students": How do you do it?
« Reply #23 on: April 11, 2003, 01:03:44 AM »
I like the bow, but it seems hard to accept in this
egalitarian society.  Over the last few years,
our club hand shakes, then touches the shoulders
during the handshake.  The hug has less
potential for disease transmission.  

I don't want to give anyone the impression
that I'm a germophobe.  If I were, I wouldn't
be doing group activities involving lots of
body contact such as martial arts and
general fitness training at a community
facility.  However, I am quite weary of
losing a couple of weeks a year to illnesses
commuted to me by members that sit
out of the workout yet shake my hand.
I really dislike the tough guy that pretends
he's not ill, works out, and then gets
everyone else sick.  I'm not a germophobe.
I just don't want to spend a lot of time
sick in bed.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »
"We do not condone the use of a toilet seat as a deadly weapon"
Go Shin Jutsu Kenpo, 3rd Degree Black Belt Prof. Richard Lewis
Bono JKD/Kajukenbo, Prof. John Bono, San Jose, CA
Baltic Dog, Dog Brothers Martial Arts

Offline Sifu Terry McBride

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Re: "Flunking Students": How do you do it?
« Reply #24 on: April 11, 2003, 09:13:04 AM »
If I'm fighting a cold, I don't shake my students hands and tell them why.  I do like personal contact, hand shakes and hugs, however I don't like to share whatever it is I've got.  Students have picked up on it and will say they have a cold so then will only bow.

I think you could state on your rules that etiquite dictates that if you have a cold, handshaking is discouraged and for the sake of your fellow students health as well as your own, stay home and get over it.

You rish a higher chance of injury if you workout sick since you're not thinking clearly and are probably weaker then usual.  

Also, I bought from a commercial janitorial supply store a spray that I place on the mats that kills pretty much every bug known to man.  It's a nice precaution and students appreciate that I take it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »
Terry McBride, 5th degree under Professor Joel Purvis, under Grandmaster Emil Bautista
There is no planet sun or star could hold you, if you but knew what you are.
Ralph Waldo Emerson

adacas

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Re: "Flunking Students": How do you do it?
« Reply #25 on: April 11, 2003, 12:23:40 PM »
I don't believe that anyone in martial arts is a germophobe since physical contact is unavoidable nor did I mean to state that anyone was.  I wouldn't like to get sick and miss practice either.  The best thing to do is find something else for those that are sick to do.  Bowing is good but sometimes that are sick may feel like they live in a glass bubble or something.  In wrestling there were always those kids who contracted ringworm and had to be banned from physical contact with anyone else but were encouaraged to workout.  In some cases though there were those who had received ringworm and instead of telling everyone they continued to wrestle.  After practice we all came into a circle huddled together with a variety of exotic smells and sweat and did a big group hug.  In a manly manner of course.  Well in a matter of two weeks the whole team had contracted ringworm.  The kids who had it in the beginning thought of it as determination, we thought of it as blatant disrespect for our health.  Even though the mats were cleaned every day outbreaks still happened.  I think there should be rules for those who are sick.  If your sick then another activity should be put in place.  Maybe a large pack of alcohol wipes would be good to those who are sick so they may be able to take part in handshakes.  That may help a little but its not for sure.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »

Offline badsifu

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Re: "Flunking Students": How do you do it?
« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2003, 04:42:29 PM »
We clean the mat with a germ/fungus killing solution every week (we I mean the kids.)  We are also encouraging students to buy mat shoes.  This also curbs the spread of foot fungus.  Sick people are sent home, if the parent drops the kid off, we call them immediately to come pick up the child.  If the parent isn't there, we have the kid sit out of class off to the side.

Hand shaking can spread colds.  I wash my hands after every class and I also have a alcohol based waterless hand cleaner that is at the front desk.  As long as you don't touch your face during class, you should be fine.  I haven't been sick all year so far (knock on wood.)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »
Dan Tyrrell

Karazenpo

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Re: "Flunking Students": How do you do it?
« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2003, 05:46:52 PM »
Hey everyone, we're getting off track here! The last nine posts including my own have nothing to do with what I originally posted. Let's get back on track and forgot about "germ warfare", who really cares about that anyway, that's all part of living life. You have sex don't you? Talk about 'germ warfare'!  Lol,  ;D  Shihan Joe
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »

Offline Jon Pack

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Re: "Flunking Students": How do you do it? Years o
« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2003, 06:44:08 PM »
I have seen some of those instructor videos by John Graden where they show tests that include peircing the arms by the elbows with knitting needles then hanging buckets of water on them, then walking across a hot bed of coals. Sound like a Tony Robbins seminar gone terribly wrong?

Then there is the test of a 40 year old (approx.) woman maybe 100 lbs. who has to take all this abuse, a full on sidekick by young man who weighs twice as much(guarantied broken ribs). Then five instructors punch here in the throat at the same time. Incredibly stupid stuff!

What in the world are people thinking! Can we flunk the instructors! The video if it wasn't so disturbing, it would almost be funny...almost.

I know of one instructor that put students through a gruelling test and then had them medtitate before belt/certificate cerimonies and when this one student opened his eyes he had in front of him a live crab.  Years of training, a 6+ hour test, and no black belt , no certificate, just a crab. When the instructor told me of the events he thought it was just the funniest thing.

Well sometimes it is good to have examples of what not to do.

Shihan Shuras thank you for all your suggetions and insites on ways to deal with these difficult situations!
Jon Pack

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »
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Karazenpo

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Re: "Flunking Students": How do you do it?
« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2003, 07:32:15 PM »
Thank you, Sensei Jon, but did that instructor ever tell you what the significance was of putting a "live crab" in front of the student to humiliate him for not passing his test? Curious....   Thinkng about it, I would have to say he probably planned that stunt ahead of time unless he has a fish tank in his studio. If that is the case then that would mean he had pre-planned 'flunking' the student so why did he put him up?..........my answer to this is the instructor in question is an as...le! :P  Shihan Joe
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »