Author Topic: Asking for Rank???  (Read 20179 times)

derek maciel

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Re: Asking for Rank???
« Reply #30 on: May 14, 2003, 11:00:12 AM »
i would be worried the other way around, worried about making sure my rank was deserved.   i wouldn't hesitate to ask not to be promoted, if i had even had a thought for a sec that i do not deserve it. theres just getting by, and then theres to hold your own without a doubt. i'd rather be sure and be a solid rank holder.

good topic and good post though.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »

Karazenpo

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Re: Asking for Rank???
« Reply #31 on: May 14, 2003, 01:27:51 PM »
Hi Derek, Glad you made over to the Cafe. Welcome! I'm sure you'll enjoy it.   Sincerely, Shihan Joe :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »

derek maciel

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Re: Asking for Rank???
« Reply #32 on: May 14, 2003, 03:29:16 PM »
thanks bud, alot of good talk around here. thanks for letting me know about it.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »

Offline Sifu Julian

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Re: Asking for Rank???
« Reply #33 on: May 18, 2003, 09:29:00 AM »
Aloha All!

Personally, I have never asked for rank (in the Midwest we were "landlocked" for a long time and couldn't promote) so it really wasn't an issue. I wouldn't necessarily be offended if a student did ask, although it hasn't happened as yet.

In SDS-JKD there are technical tests up to and including Godan (5th). So, I have asked to test but the promotion was never an issue because if you pass the test you are promoted.

I would also never question a promotion and tell my students they are to act accordingly. If a Hachidan (8th) Professor walked up to one of my students and said, "I am promoting you to 7th here and now" that their response would be to bow, thank the Prof. profusely, and keep their mouth shut other than that. (I say that with the knowledge that that situation would never happen---but it conveys the point pretty directly.)

If I proceeded to have papers filled out for someone I was going to promote and they told me they didn't want it. . . I would rip that paper up and let them think about it a good long time before giving them the opportunity to be promoted. I know more than my students about what a 1st-3rd should look like and my Sifu knows more what 4th-7th are supposed to look like. I trust him to make the right decision at the right time.

Basically, I agree with Professor Scott that the high ranking black belts know and can see certain attributes and nuances that others may miss and that we as their juniors should show them respect and take their word for our ranking. I haven't known too many KJKB instructors who hand out black belts---or maybe I haven't met them yet, who knows? At least mine have never handed it out easily!!  :-)

As for other black belts coming into my classes---I only allow them to wear it if it were a KJKB Black Belt. I might consider it if it were a Kempo/Kenpo Black Belt. But, a TKD or BJJ Black Belt would start out at white with the rest of the beginners. I would expect a Black Belt from another style to progress through the lower belts more rapidly because of their previous training.

When I first went into SDS-JKD with Prof. Gary Dill, I was already a Shodan (1st) and started back at Basic 1. I took all the tests and then tested for Black Sash in JKD and because of my previous training and because the material was so close---I tested for Nidan (2nd) and skipped 1st. I thought that was a fair thing to do. Showed respect for my previous training but also required me to learn and test with all the material.

I do think John Evans idea of allowing them to wear their belt as long as they wear the gi they got it in is an interesting one. I will have to give that more thought.

Mahalo for everyone's input---this is a really good thread!

Aloha!

Sifu Julian
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:05 PM by -1 »
Professor Julian Sims
8th Red Belt/Black Border-Kajukenbo Self-Defense;
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Offline EmptyCup

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Re:Asking for Rank???
« Reply #34 on: June 13, 2003, 02:32:59 AM »
Somewhere earlier in this thread, someone (I'm sorry that I'm too lazy to find out who) had mentioned the idea of the 'empty cup' to recieve new learning.  Actually, that's why I chose this name... Though I heard that story when I went from the Western segment of my massage therapy training to my Eastern segment.

Having that said...

I have had previous training but I chose to downplay it some because I feel that I need to do that to empty my cup.  That is not to say I don't respect and value my previous training.  I think because I learned Judo and Karate in the Philippines on the bases,  I was trained strict old school.  I would NEVER dream of asking for a rank.  I hold this so true that I think I'd die of embrassment if my brother or my fiance asked for a rank from Sifu.

When I first started Kajukenbo, I never even questioned starting as a white belt.  Sifu asked me after my first day of training if I had past experience.  I told him respectfully and humbly that I had been a brown belt in karate.  After a time he came back and told me that Grandmaster had told him that I could hold my brown belt but I would train only as a guest.  I was already in love with the school and was only happy to be the lowest member of the family rather than a high ranking guest.

Soon afterwards, Sifu mentioned to me certifying for orange belt based on the strength of the Japanese katas he had taught me!  I was so grateful to just be training again.  I didn't even think I had been training long enough to go up for yellow belt in time for the next promotion.  Again, soon afterward my certification, he mentioned to me pre-testing for promotion to light purple belt.  I was and am still humbled by all the belief he has in me.

I hope I don't seem boastful, but I'd like to say that I never once asked to be promoted.  The only way other students knew something different with me was happening was when Sifu mentioned it in front of the class.  And that if I was still just now waiting to be promoted to yellow rather than light purple, I'd still be a happy camper since I'm back in training after 10 long years.

(Oh, while I never asked to be promoted, I was persistent in knowing what my status was AFTER he mentioned it to me.  Hey, he started it!)
As the young man told the wise man about all that he had learned from other wise men, the wise man continued to pour tea until the cup over flowed. When the young man asked the old man why he continued to pour the old man responded, "You must first empty your cup to receive anything."

Offline Cassidy Drake

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Re:Asking for Rank???
« Reply #35 on: June 18, 2003, 06:28:54 AM »
Well I came to Abilene Kajukembo with a blackbelt in one style and a brown in two(military moves).   Anyways I wouldn't think of asking for rank.  First off Ifind it disrespectful.  Secondly, I was new toKajukembo, so I wore my white belt and wore it proudly.  I skipped yellow and tested for orange when Sifu Cox told me I was ready.  I was set to test for my purple, then I deplyed to Iraq where I am currently now.  I look at it like this, I'm totally confident in my fighting abilities, I don't need a belt for that, plus kajukembo is new to me, so I should start from the lowest rank.  I will be kajukembo for life because I like how they don't hand out black belts, it averages five years at my school.  No problem  for me, america wants everything immediately and not to work for it.  I want to get my black belt in this style when I am told I am ready, and I won't even think about it before then.

Karazenpo

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Re:Asking for Rank???
« Reply #36 on: June 18, 2003, 08:19:36 AM »
Cassidy Drake, First of all, I agree wholeheartedly with your post. Secondly but most important, thank you for your service in Iraq. God bless, be safe and we all hope and pray that our 'fighting' men and women come home soon! :)  Sincerely, Shihan Joe Shuras

Kempo-Sensei

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Re:Asking for Rank???
« Reply #37 on: June 18, 2003, 08:25:50 AM »
Quote
Cassidy Drake, First of all, I agree wholeheartedly with your post. Secondly but most important, thank you for your service in Iraq. God bless, be safe and we all hope and pray that our 'fighting' men and women come home soon!


What else can be said?  I totally agree.  Thank you and come home safely.


John Evans
Sgt. USMC - former



Offline kajukenbo Dad

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Re:Asking for Rank???
« Reply #38 on: June 18, 2003, 12:29:34 PM »
Belt Rank is only as good as the trainning,and is between the owner of the belt......how many Navy Seal wannba,s have you run into???? they are living in a dream world.............train strong to remain strong first and everthing follows and please Sifu,s keep up the standarders for us!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Offline Cassidy Drake

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Re:Asking for Rank???
« Reply #39 on: June 18, 2003, 10:15:08 PM »
Well thank you for the kind words about my deployment.  I can't wait to get home and train again, not to mention my daughter was born two weeks ago.  I have been keeping up on my studies, although it is kind of easy since I don't know very much Kajukembo, AC1, Counters 1-5, Noble drills, Defenses1-5 and the forms, but I throw in my old stuff too.

Kajukembo for life

derek

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Re:Asking for Rank???
« Reply #40 on: July 01, 2003, 09:07:48 PM »
hey, get home safe man. congratulations on your new born daughter!  

Todd Reiner

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Re:Asking for Rank???
« Reply #41 on: August 02, 2003, 12:56:02 AM »
In my school (origional method) tests are given every 6 months for adults.  For kids every 3 months
but they get stripped belts in between solid.  For Black its a year.  If a student is not ready they don't
test on time and therefore must wait.  Although I only recall this happenning once.  As in other styles
retaining their belts its a no.  An exception of course is a guest and not a student.  I wish to thank
Cassidy Drake on his service to this country.  I served towards the end of the Desert Storm and
remember how much the support at home meant...Thank You....Excellent web site.  Being in
Minnesota I don't get the opportunity to converse with anyone about KAJUKENBO.  Thanks



Offline Kaju Bear

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Re:Asking for Rank???
« Reply #42 on: August 12, 2003, 06:40:02 AM »
I am of the opinion ,as many of you, that there is a distinct difference between asking for guidance to achieve the next rank and asking to be promoted. I agree that with some here that correct thinking and a tactful approach to his instructor on the matter a student should be able to ask his teacher what is required and how his teacher would advise him to proceed in order to accomplish these requirements. If a student were to believe that they had achieved a standard prior to the expected time frame normally noticed by the instructor and this student didn’t believe the teacher was aware of his progress, it is reasonable to expect a beginner student to ask about being tested. I think that anyone who has taught or run a school as had to deal with this scenario at least once.

I believe that a teacher, especially one that is running a school as a business, is obligated to a student to map out ,through some resource of his creation, a guide which a student can use to gauge his progress by. A rank requirement checklist for example. It really goes without saying that each individual will be shown the path up the mountain but not necessarily place his feet in the same exact spots on that path as those who proceeded him along the way. What good teacher or businessman these days doesn’t use such tools?

The real problem here is the instructor’s prospective about the student’s individual readiness for promotion in contrast to the student’s notion of readiness which must be much more then mere memory exercises manifested through physical demonstrations of counters and katas. It is purely subjective on the part of the teacher to make the determination if the student is at the right skill level, knowledge base, has abilities attained, maturity and ethics demonstrated, mental fortitude observed, among other criteria in comparison to where the teacher thinks that individual student should be for that rank level. I feel strongly that it is the obligation of the teacher to ensure that the student understands the standards and expectations of that teacher with regard to his ranking system. Each individual student should be pulled aside by his instructor and given the teacher’s evaluation on how he is progressing or not at each cross road of that student’s training. This should include an evaluation of their spiritual and mental development as much as the physical abilities. Whatever the teacher requires for the student to achieve for a given rank should be the topic of the evaluation. This evaluation is not the testing but separate to it.

Let’s call this evaluation session what it really is a counseling or coaching session. You have the student join you for an honest critique of their progress in a comfortable setting a place that will allow them to feel comfortable and open to your observations and guidance. Schedule this discussion with the student during a time when neither of you will be distracted with your surroundings or other business. Write down some key points you want to cover which you feel are important for that individual to hear as they work the next goal. Be honest and open with your student if they ask about their next promotion. I like some of these responses. Like the “I will test you but you won’t pass” type. But you can avoid that all together through honest and meaningful critiquing. Tell them what their doing well and need to continue to sustain. Explain current weaknesses and more importantly how to fix them.  

Obviously, there has to be some common sense to this coaching and counseling approach to teaching. You may have a huge school or not enough assistant instructors to make this approach feasible for you. Typical coaching techniques of praise and reinforcement with children are going to have a much more productive impact then sitting down over a cup of tea and talking. This is a teaching tool better used on adult students then kids. Although I have used it in an abbreviated format in small group settings with children and it seems to work out well. It never will completely eliminate the occasional student from asking but by having clear expectations and good communication, it usually takes care of most requests.

Just my two cents worth.
Sifu Morg
Sifu Morg Olsen
3rd degree, Emperado Method, Senior Grand Master Kaanana
1st degree, Tum Pai, Grand Master Robert Heuer

Offline Humble Student

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Re:Asking for Rank???
« Reply #43 on: August 18, 2003, 11:07:20 PM »
As a current colored belt, I would never consider asking for rank.  

I recall a Musashi legend where he worked years for his master before finally asking when he would begin training, and was told his second lesson would begin the next day.  I think I would do the same.

However, since I already have the privilege of training, I do not have anything left to ask for...certainly NOT rank.  I know it will come when the time is right, as my instructors see fit.

Respectfully-
« Last Edit: August 18, 2003, 11:46:38 PM by Humble Student »
Mike Johnson  
Guangxi School of Martial Arts          
Napa, California

Offline kajudaddy

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Re:Asking for Rank???
« Reply #44 on: September 12, 2003, 12:56:38 AM »
how about black belt degree's.whats the time/rank criterea for rank promotion.it should be a observation of the black belts head instructor,but lets say he's not well liked(not to get political).is there a time limit to leave a active teaching black belt at a certain rank.now lets say billy(no one in perticular)was instructing as a 3rd degree for 5 years and not a word.now what.
Paul Ferber
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Eugene Ray Kajukenbo
Great Falls,MT