Author Topic: If it ain't broke, don't fix it!  (Read 9338 times)

Greg Harper

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Re:If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2003, 05:12:27 PM »
 8)
I am not going to say any more than Sigun Bishop & Sigung Solis have already said.
Im just going to sit in my corner and GROWL.  >:(

Professor Powell Knows what he is talking about.

Greg Harper

Offline kajudaddy

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Re:If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
« Reply #16 on: October 14, 2003, 10:10:16 PM »
i think to change techniques is wrong.maybe add some if a certain type of attack defense or area of weekness you feel needs strengthening,but not change the original ones.alot of the time you wont be able to use a technique exactly the way its taught any how.i feel they are a defense reference to different attacks and wont be used exactly or may be mixed with other techniques.i sure wish i could dictate how someone was going to attack.
Paul Ferber
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Great Falls,MT

Offline D-Man

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Re:If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
« Reply #17 on: October 15, 2003, 12:17:47 AM »
Hum?  Seems I have stirred up some aggression in the cafe.  It might not matter to some, but I apologize with my deepest sincerety if I have disrepected anybody.  There are a lot of high ranking, intelligent individuals in this forum, and I can tell you right now that I do not consider myself above anybody here.

Professor Powell:
I apologize for any miscommunication, and I stand corrected.  A man of your stature deffinately has some pull in the Martial Arts world.  I was just trying to express myself.  Unfortunately my analogy might have seemed disrespectful.

Mr. Bishop:
I apologize, I mean no disrespect.  Jon Loren is not my teacher.  You are a very intelligent individual, and I understand where you are coming from, but I do not feel comfortable persuing a conversation about the honor of my school and teacher.  Your thoughts are always appriciated.

Sigung Joe:
You are right, sometimes I do forget who I am talking to, but my opinions remain the same either way.

Shodanson:
I have been training in Tum Pai for nine years, much less than many people in this forum.  I apologize for offending you and writing in a non diplomatic manner, but I do not apologize for speaking my mind.  No one should, white belt, black belt, or no belt.  Why, it was just last week that I learned something new from a gentleman in his third martial art's class ever.

Wow, few! ;)  That's about all of the drama I can handle for today.

Peace to all,
Respectfully, (<--should I really have to add this?)
D-Man (one of the more outspoken individuals on the cafe.)
« Last Edit: October 15, 2003, 12:43:14 AM by D-Man »

sigungjoe

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Re:If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2003, 08:22:18 AM »
I can respect someone who stands by what they believe. sometimes we just have to find a respectful way of expressing it. Mr. D Man, thank you for responding to my last post. But that post was not directed for just 1 person. A few of us feel there are still some on here that do not understand showing online  respect to the Professors and Grand Masters that frequent this site.
Once again , to the people that are respectful and positive on this site, sorry for my rants.

Joe
« Last Edit: October 15, 2003, 08:23:39 AM by sigungjoe »

Offline Mitch Powell

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Re:If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2003, 10:16:17 AM »
D-Man,
Your opinion is important, as is everyone's on this forum. We need different views to see different sides of the issues we are discussing. I appreciate your last post. It takes a lot to apoligize for anything. It's much easier to think you are right and move on.

As Sigung Bishop pointed out, Sijo has authorized the development of Kajukenbo's current four branches-Original, Ch'uan Fa, Tum Pai and Won Hop Kuen Do. He did so out of trust for those given the responsibility of creating these versions of Kajukenbo.

In the future you may see Ted Sotelo's Fi Kuen and some version of Professor Harper's cage fighting methods, as well as others being added to the Kajukenbo curriculum. In any event, they will be added based upon Sijo's authority.

My 9 year old son, Dean, could make changes to Kajukenbo, but that's not what we want as an organization or an art. I don't want to be embarrassed when I see someone performing Kajukenbo, from any branch.

Sigung Joe, you hit the nail on the head. What I saw was "aweful." Had it been one student, then I would have felt the student lacked knowledge and skill, but the forms were repeated by several students.  

Professor Scott, you talked about modifications that you have made with regard to Ch'uan fa. The difference between you and the teacher I'm talking about is the knowledge and skill that you have acquired through years of training, hard work, and association with great teachers.

If anything can come out of this discussion, it's my personal request to everyone, that we always maintain the integrity of our art. Changes will always occur, but tradition is important too. Branches are fine, but a tree without roots will die.
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Karazenpo

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Re:If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2003, 08:40:10 AM »
 There is no doubt that many have modified forms for tournament purposes and it's kind of ashame because it takes away the true self defense aspects of the kata. If anything, just have tournament forms to teach to competitors and keep it a seperate curriculum from the traditional kata. Where I'm from,  the New England area,  some tournaments are starting to have a 'traditional forms division' which I think is a good thing. Hopefully we'll get away from this 'Jet Li stuff' and 'Gymkata'. ;)

Offline Mitch Powell

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Re:If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
« Reply #21 on: October 16, 2003, 09:46:58 AM »
God Bless You Shihan Joe,
My feelings exactly. As teachers and competitors we can start this movement right now. From this point on refuse to prostitute your art for a trophy. If you compete do your school's forms movement for movement. Don't add anything. Don't kick to the sky if that's not where the kick goes. Don't jump up and down and backflip. Do the form as taught to you, so that you may demonstrate the actual self defense movements the form was based on.

At a tournament years ago, Nick Cerio gave the Mouse Krasno(sp?) a very low score during forms competion because she did a bunch of nonsense related movements while competing in a traditional forms division. Her dad lost it, and she lost it and Cerio said-"You show me what self defese applications those movements represent." He was 100% right.

I remember years ago I performed a Kajukenbo form that has a low side kick in it. One of the judges told me afterward he would have scored me higher but my kick wasn't high enough. I did the form as taught. I was OK with the way I demonstrated it, because it was the way my teacher taught it to me. I remember this incident well because that judge is a San Francisco Kajukenbo teacher!

Shodanson,
As answered aboved, yes forms are modified for tournament competition. Unfortunately, this has been part of the tournament scene since tournaments began in the west.

As a judge I do not need to know your form. I judge you on balance, power, composure, precision, accuracy, confidence, etc. A good kata done by a good martial artists is like a story unfolding right before your eyes.
Tim Bowles comes to mind-outstanding, also Bill Tolentino from years past.

As far as open forms. Those were designed to allow personal expression and creativity. I'm not a fan of open forms for the reason Sihan Joe explained-the movements are not necessarily based upon self defense.

A great form to me is one that is not affected by age. In other words, once you learn the form you can perform it the remainder of your healthy life, no matter how old you get.
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Karazenpo

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Re:If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
« Reply #22 on: October 16, 2003, 10:29:26 AM »
Thank you, Professor Powell. Professor Cerio created a form at the advent of Nick Cerio's Kenpo. This form was to be the nucleus of his system and it was his 'favorite' kata. It was called 'Circle of the Tiger". He referred to it as his 'baby'. It was based on Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu's first form. He used to perform it at tournaments and then demonstrate the applications. Everything had function. I remember at a tournament with him in Rhode Island in the early 90's we were watching the forms division. Circle of the Tiger was a popular form at this time but I noticed it had been altered and lengthened. The Professor told me that anyone performing Cirlce of the Tiger who had altered it was to state to the judges: "My form is "Circle of the Tiger" MODIFIED for competition." However, you could see in his face watching that he wasn't exactly happy with it, it looked more like he just tolerated it!, lol.  ;)  Respectfully, Shihan Joe

Offline badsifu

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Re:If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
« Reply #23 on: October 16, 2003, 11:13:01 AM »
:):):):):):)
« Last Edit: August 03, 2007, 11:59:32 AM by badsifu »
Dan Tyrrell

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Re:If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
« Reply #24 on: October 16, 2003, 12:13:57 PM »
I also can’t stand the Gymkata that goes on in tournaments. I’m tired of going to tournaments and seeing practical Chinese Kempo and Kajukenbo forms get beat by some young kid flying all over the place (this happens with judges who spend more time watching Kung Fu theatre than focusing on street effective techniques).

I hate tournaments that group everything together. The better tournaments have a Kajukenbo/Kenpo/Kempo forms or Hawaiian forms division. That’s where I like to compete. I understand the statement about the Hard Style Method forms being in a JKO ring, but I think the audience should be able to see (and appreciate) the variety that the Kajukenbo family has to offer.
Sigung Andrew Evans, KSDI #888
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Offline kajudaddy

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Re:If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
« Reply #25 on: October 16, 2003, 06:38:27 PM »
ive been doing the tournament circuit for the last 3 years and i have noticed some kajukenbo schools changing kata's for compitition to"keep an edge on the compitition".i do not agree and it is up to the head instructors to stop it.one of my partners has done this and it upsets me,even though he has won numerous compititions and the las vegas world championships with it.
Paul Ferber
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Eugene Ray Kajukenbo
Great Falls,MT

sigungjoe

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Re:If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
« Reply #26 on: October 16, 2003, 07:52:18 PM »
Hey Shodanson,
I like the part about the bang then bbq. anyways, i think its ok to add lib your forms for competition as long as you announce that it is not an original form. correct me if im wrong but isnt palama 11 a quiet smooth form with no kiai's or stomping? ive seen it done in many tournaments with kiai's and stomps and everyone seemed ok with it.
just wondering :D

Offline Mitch Powell

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Re:If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
« Reply #27 on: October 18, 2003, 03:01:57 PM »
Kajukenbo's Palama Set # 11 is a version of the Okinawan form Naihanchi, also known by the Japanese name Tekki, which simply means "Horse Riding Stance."

Most reasearch indicates the form was originally a Chinese form taught to the Okinawans. In its original (Chinese) version it looked more like Choy li fut.

The original composer of Naihanchi is still unknown. It was taught in both the Shuri and Tomari villages even before Itosu composed the pinan forms in 1907. The form dates back to at least the early 1800s. Most early karate students learned Naihanchi as their first form.

There are also two other Naihanchi forms. The one Kajukenbo performs is called Naihanchi Shodan or Naihanchi # 1. The other two are Naihanchi Nidan (#2) and Naihanchi Sandan (#3).

The Okinawan version influenced the Japanese version and the form has since became hard-line. The movements became more pronounced and strong. The form was known in Kajukenbo circles as the "Strong Man Dance" or even "The Dance of Death."

One of the most obvious differences between the Okinawan version and the Japanese version is the hand stiking out to the side. The Okinawans place the palm up and the Japanese strike out with the back of the hand.

While Kajukenbo has a tendancy to stomp down harder than the Okinawan and Japanese versions, you will see teachers from those arts use the stomp as well, especially when striking out to the sides with the side or back hand.

I noticed when I was in Japan, the students have a tendency to look as if they are about to fall over they lean so far to the side before placing their foot down and striking. At times they stomp so hard, they vibrate the dojo.

One of the big differences between Kajukenbo's version and the others is the foot work. In Kajukenbo, we execute low forward kicks, the others do not. Instead, they execute an inward foot sweep.

In the World Kajukenbo Tapes, created to unify Kajukenbo's movements. The form is performed with  two ki'ais. The first one is the x block- elbow strike that is done when you go to the squat. The second one is the left elbow strike into your open right palm, performed when you execute the first series of movements to your right side.

Sijo was present when the form was performed on the tape, so that is where he wants the kiais applied.

The Okinawan and Japanese versions kiai on move number 21 and 38, the double strike to the side (21 left side, 38 right side).

So all versions have two kiais and listed in their standardized versions (reference, the essence of Okinawan Karate-do-Nagamine and Best Karate-Nakayama).

I have a video tape of Funakoshi from 1924 performing Naihanchi. He does an outstanding job. The form have power, balance and speed.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2003, 03:04:58 PM by Mitch Powell »
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TODD

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Re:If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
« Reply #28 on: October 19, 2003, 12:37:27 AM »
At one time was it not acceptable to perform #11 in public?  Only in class and testing I thought.  Where/how can I obtain the kajukenbo world tapes?  I was taught with kiai and stomps as well.  I know #11 as the dance of death, why is it called that?
« Last Edit: October 19, 2003, 10:19:30 AM by Todd »

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Re:If it ain't broke, don't fix it!
« Reply #29 on: October 25, 2003, 09:06:10 PM »
#11 is known as the dance of death because it is often performed at funerals of those in the Kajukenbo/Chinese Kempo family. Traditionally, it is performed around a coffin as it is being lowered.

Once I saw chief instructors and head instructors at a funeral ceremony perform it. It was as sad as it was beautiful.

Respectfully,
Sigung Andrew Evans, KSDI #888
Hokkien Martial Arts, Topeka, KS
http://www.TopekaKarate.com