Author Topic: How do you jiu-jitsu?  (Read 39454 times)

Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: How do you jiu-jitsu?
« Reply #45 on: November 19, 2010, 08:46:32 PM »
By the way the article I wrote was for a publication of a Jeet Kune Do magazine doing a grappling special edition...they asked me to write it...maybe mid or late '90's...I taught a seminar a decade or so ago in Seattle, Professor Mateo and  Professor Baxter were both there it was at Seven Star...the next day we taught them privates
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Offline Wado

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Re: How do you jiu-jitsu?
« Reply #46 on: November 19, 2010, 09:01:12 PM »
the back of the hand might get there if you are grappling a skinny necked person....thick necks will limit the wrap...i have been teaching the rear naked for a very long time asked around I would guess there are some that have been on the front side of it ;D

That true on all accounts Professor Bono. You even put my instructor, Professor Mateo, in one back around 1998-1999 when you and Professor Yoshi came up to Seattle.

I was thinking today how the anaconda choke works better against thicker necked persons... pretty much your choke surfaces for the RNC are those used by the anaconda choke.

We got a lot of thinner neck folks up here  :o

Point is that there are fundamentals to be taught. There are specific "cutting" surfaces that allow chokes to be more effective. If a student isn't using them, a little reminder of the fundamentals is good.
« Last Edit: November 19, 2010, 09:04:01 PM by Wado »
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Offline Wado

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Re: How do you jiu-jitsu?
« Reply #47 on: November 19, 2010, 09:06:49 PM »
By the way the article I wrote was for a publication of a Jeet Kune Do magazine doing a grappling special edition...they asked me to write it...maybe mid or late '90's...I taught a seminar a decade or so ago in Seattle, Professor Mateo and  Professor Baxter were both there it was at Seven Star...the next day we taught them privates

Yeah I remember meeting you then.

Edit: Hey Professor Bono. Here is a video of the BJJ instructor that I spoke of that taught me the RNC. He wins by RNC at the end of this match. Now the angle of the camera makes it really hard to see, but basically this is the arm position. And yes, we are all smaller necked folks, so adjustments would be made.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4IMhiKNgSY 
« Last Edit: November 19, 2010, 10:51:19 PM by Wado »
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Offline Wado

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Re: How do you jiu-jitsu?
« Reply #48 on: November 20, 2010, 02:16:47 AM »
Hello Professor Bono,

I was reminded that I learned two ways to do the RNC. The first way is how you describe it, the second is how I prefer. However, since it was taught to me at the same time, I may be confused about the second method. It might not be the RNC but instead a basic choke.

The following video demonstrates the ways I learned the RNC:

http://www.fightauthority.com/watch.php?ytv=176SLdBhj_A

If you go to around the 9:11 minute mark, you will see one example of the second method which I prefer (note that the radius bone is positioned on the neck as I described before). I may be wrong in calling it the RNC... what is the name of that choke? I've been calling it a variation of the RNC for years... but what do you call it?

Thanks
« Last Edit: November 20, 2010, 02:31:05 AM by Wado »
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Offline Ron Baker

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Re: How do you jiu-jitsu?
« Reply #49 on: November 20, 2010, 08:12:20 AM »
I've also seen the wrapping hand placed on the forehead in order to give more exposure to the neck.

Pro's and con's?
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Offline Wado

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Re: How do you jiu-jitsu?
« Reply #50 on: November 20, 2010, 11:40:23 AM »
I like to divide some lessons into fundamentals, principles, and technique.

A fundamental for chokes is that there are certain "cutting" surfaces that should be used to choke the arteries. If those cutting surfaces are not used, you can end up just wasting a lot of energy and time trying to get a choke to work. As I stated, I prefer the radius bone closer to the wrist as one cutting surface, but for a deeper choke the cutting surfaces as Professor Bono pointed out can be used. When someone isn't using a good cutting surface applied to each of the arteries, they are missing a fundamental. Fundamentals are like body mechanics.

A principle would be like "stun or unbalance on contact". So, for example, I like to chop (slap) the side of the head (ear, jawline) or back of the brain stem to stun before choking. This momentarily stuns and causes the opponent to bring their hands up in defense. When they bring their hands up, I can see if they have a weapon and go from there. And if they were fishing for a weapon, it might cause them to miss it at that moment.

Then there is technique which are the specific steps, methods, etc.

There is overlap between fundamentals, principles and technique. Putting it all together is the most important and that requires experience and fighting spirit.

With this said.

I've also seen the wrapping hand placed on the forehead in order to give more exposure to the neck.

Pro's and con's?

Exposing more of the neck by applying pressure to the forehead is technique, but the principle is to stun or unbalance. Applying pressure, IME, is important to be used to unbalance the opponent. Why? Because it is a counter to them throwing you over the top of them (and slamming your face first into the pavement). The fact that it exposes the neck is part of what the technique does.

The cons is if you are unable to unbalance the opponent, if they are strong enough, they can just pull your hand/arm down and maybe throw you over them or armbar you.

Another technique, if you want to get under the neck is to rip your knuckles across the arteries as you set up the choke. This can stun them momentarily.


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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: How do you jiu-jitsu?
« Reply #51 on: November 20, 2010, 11:49:19 AM »
In that video the hand/wrist area is still behind the SCM which means it isn't optimum for the choke...the skinnier the neck the farther behind the the head the wrist would end up..
  This also depends on arm length....in the video the one guy talks about him training with Erik Paulson who is a friend on mine and came up with Sifu Larry Hartsell like myself....I started my chokes using BBJ techniques but found there needed to be changes...being DC and knowing anatomy I worked for a much quicker choke....lots of trial and error....

Here's a video with giant necks...some well over 20"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bz5-I4x9Do  

Here's one showing transitions
http://www.youtube.com/user/bones4u#p/search/1/VPNPzpa_NVo  

Here's one if the wrist moves to position and they only are blocking one artery...it gives me time to strike to escape...though the guy choking me is very good at the chokes the position was compromised
http://www.youtube.com/user/bones4u#p/search/2/tXkS3GiKves
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: How do you jiu-jitsu?
« Reply #52 on: November 20, 2010, 11:58:30 AM »
The Cutting you are talking about really is the opposite I do a choke...I would use the bone for a crank but not a choke...the reason so many have such a hard time actually getting submissions during matches or fights is the give it away...example would be if I was to throw an over hand right and load the punch...everyone knows it's coming. 

I am not looking for pain on submission till it is set, and on a choke I want them to know they are about to be choke out at the very last second. We are trying to block blood flow the larger object we use the faster and better the choke becomes.

 Hand on the head looks cool when we are goofing around with big time wrestling moves but exposes the hand to be pulled off and sometimes used for a straight arm submission against you over the opponents shoulder.

The back of the hand under the ear is key to the wedge we try to create, the primary choke hand should have the thumb referenced in the sternal notch.....to bring the chin up use the nose...works like a charm....
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Offline Wado

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Re: How do you jiu-jitsu?
« Reply #53 on: November 20, 2010, 12:12:14 PM »
The Cutting you are talking about really is the opposite I do a choke...I would use the bone for a crank but not a choke...the reason so many have such a hard time actually getting submissions during matches or fights is the give it away...example would be if I was to throw an over hand right and load the punch...everyone knows it's coming. 

I am not looking for pain on submission till it is set, and on a choke I want them to know they are about to be choke out at the very last second. We are trying to block blood flow the larger object we use the faster and better the choke becomes.

I think through the years my emphasis has changed on this. All that you describe is rock solid Professor. It is in fact the way I was first shown in BJJ on how to apply the choke. I call that a deep RNC in my own terminology.

I think the point of my change in preferences is mainly due to not submission but using the technique to stun. So then applying the radius to cut the artery on one side, there is an instant reaction from the opponent. Often the hands come up (they do not grab my arm but come up) and I can see if they have a weapon. Also to stop them from fishing for a weapon.

A good grappler is going to get out of that as you pointed out, it telegraphs the choke.  If I can, I'll throw on a body triangle to squeeze their kidneys and then finish with the choke as their hands drop due to the body triangle.  Of course, this only works on people I can triangle.

Still learning.  :-\

Hand on the head looks cool when we are goofing around with big time wrestling moves but exposes the hand to be pulled off and sometimes used for a straight arm submission against you over the opponents shoulder.

The back of the hand under the ear is key to the wedge we try to create, the primary choke hand should have the thumb referenced in the sternal notch.....to bring the chin up use the nose...works like a charm....

Nice.
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: How do you jiu-jitsu?
« Reply #54 on: November 20, 2010, 12:22:40 PM »
Aren't we all....crazy there just isn't enough time or years to be as good as I want to be...I found if you sing in their ear quickly while choking them it relaxes them also.....I use old Rock myself.... ;D
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Re: How do you jiu-jitsu?
« Reply #55 on: November 20, 2010, 01:06:34 PM »
Aren't we all....crazy there just isn't enough time or years to be as good as I want to be...I found if you sing in their ear quickly while choking them it relaxes them also.....I use old Rock myself.... ;D
Back in my jailer days I sang the sesame street song while applying a lock, amongst other things.... "sunny days"......

Offline Jason Goldsmith

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Re: How do you jiu-jitsu?
« Reply #56 on: November 20, 2010, 01:07:34 PM »

A good grappler is going to get out of that as you pointed out, it telegraphs the choke.  If I can, I'll throw on a body triangle to squeeze their kidneys and then finish with the choke as their hands drop due to the body triangle.  Of course, this only works on people I can triangle.

Still learning.  :-\


The anatomy student in me feels the need to point out that a body triangle can't apply any real pressure to the kidneys; they are behind the ribs and too well protected from squeezing force.  Intestines, oh ya, and boy does can it hurt.  You can also increase abdominal cavity pressure which can be unpleasant for all your organs, but kidney-wise that is an indirect result.
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Offline Wado

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Re: How do you jiu-jitsu?
« Reply #57 on: November 20, 2010, 03:31:47 PM »

A good grappler is going to get out of that as you pointed out, it telegraphs the choke.  If I can, I'll throw on a body triangle to squeeze their kidneys and then finish with the choke as their hands drop due to the body triangle.  Of course, this only works on people I can triangle.

Still learning.  :-\


The anatomy student in me feels the need to point out that a body triangle can't apply any real pressure to the kidneys; they are behind the ribs and too well protected from squeezing force.  Intestines, oh ya, and boy does can it hurt.  You can also increase abdominal cavity pressure which can be unpleasant for all your organs, but kidney-wise that is an indirect result.

Oh, I stand corrected. I just thought it was the kidneys because that is where it hurts like hell after the fact. And when done to other people, that is where they complain it hurts.

It's not very nice I've been told. Hurts for a few minutes and is sore a bit after that.

Edit: Just to clarify, this is a body triangle from behind the opponent.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2010, 03:55:19 PM by Wado »
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Offline Wado

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Re: How do you jiu-jitsu?
« Reply #58 on: November 20, 2010, 03:41:55 PM »
Aren't we all....crazy there just isn't enough time or years to be as good as I want to be...I found if you sing in their ear quickly while choking them it relaxes them also.....I use old Rock myself.... ;D
Back in my jailer days I sang the sesame street song while applying a lock, amongst other things.... "sunny days"......

Is this the American version of Kiai-jutsu?

Man, I gots to steal more knowledge from you guys... good stuff  ;D

Kind of chokes me up on the inside  :P

Hey Professor Bono,

You might get a kick out of this. In another thread a bit ago I stated that I was shown one application (bunkai) for the outward, rising, inner block sequence in Pinan 1 (as we do it) was a Judo throw against an attacker that is behind you.

Well, I was shown an application for the high X-block in Pinan 1 (as we do it) could be the RNC against an enemy that has their back to you. There is more to setting it up from the form, but basically thought you might get a kick out of this.
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: How do you jiu-jitsu?
« Reply #59 on: November 20, 2010, 04:52:15 PM »
The body triangle has never been a move I liked since it makes me also immobile...but it depends on the level of both grapplers...a great grappler against an inferior one the move makes sense to me...

though the pressure from the body triangle when on top as it was made to be used is directly on the back not the front of the body...it's the pelvis of the top person pushing downward while anchored with the legs that creates the pressure and the tap on skilled people...not the abdominal pressure.  Most complain of low back pain and that is the DC  in me who sees and hears this....


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Champions aren't made in the gyms. Champions are made from something they have deep inside them a desire,a dream,a vision