Author Topic: Fighting!  (Read 6121 times)

BiLL

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Fighting!
« on: October 18, 2003, 11:45:35 PM »
How i can fight with a boxer and his weak pionts?

Jon Pack

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Re:Fighting!
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2003, 12:36:45 AM »
Just this last weekend I atteneded a kickboxing tournament where a  multiple golden gloves boxing champion just got worked by a proficient kicker. He never really touched the guy and got ko'd in the 2nd by a spin side kick. I understand this was his second attempt at a pro kickboxing match and the first match he got done ugly by a nationaly ranked kickboxer, multiple cuts and ko'd through the ropes across the judges ringside table and down to the floor.
They just don't have skills if you keep it at kicking range, so keep it there.This is with rules. If you are talking fighting then there are no rules and I would say go for the eyes. Use knees, elbows and forearms etc.
Jon

TODD

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Re:Fighting!
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2003, 09:57:19 AM »
I work with a boxer.  This guy is a good fighter inside and outside the ring.  Inside the ring he has rules.  Outside anything goes.   He knows this and uses it.  I was taught to spar from a squat (stance) and change footwork as needed.  This drove him nuts because I was low and not within reach.  Another thing that worked was low kicks.  I've mixed it up with this guy regarding out-of-control inmates.  He is aggressive and not afraid to take a hit.  The one thing to remember is theirs a big difference between ring and street.  Just because someone is a boxer does not mean on the street they will box.  Another thing I noticed is he was never taught to look into the eyes of his opponant.  He looked down, I ask why he said he does not know.

Kempo-Sensei

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Re:Fighting!
« Reply #3 on: October 22, 2003, 11:59:08 AM »
Looking down is great because you will kick in the peripheral  vision and your timing will increase.

Why fight with the boxer?  Try and buy him a cup of coffee!   ;D  





Karazenpo

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Re:Fighting!
« Reply #4 on: October 22, 2003, 12:30:06 PM »
Looking down can signal a lack of self confidence, remember the 'eye of the tiger', besides looking at the eyes brings in the view of the shoulders which inturn signals movement. ;)

Kempo-Sensei

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Re:Fighting!
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2003, 01:12:03 PM »
Using tunnel vision from being caught up in the stare will slow you down.  Also, staring into someone's eyes can be a show of aggression leading to a more brutal situation.  You don't have to see movement in the shoulders to detect the motion of someone trying to punch you.  Take a look at the hips or even the knees and you will be see much movement before the strike has a chance to get going.  


 :)



TODD

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Re:Fighting!
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2003, 02:38:29 PM »
I was taught to look into the eyes.  The eyes will tell a lot such as intent-when, how, and where the attacker will strike.  It is not good to look into the eyes if the conflict is avoidable.  When the space has closed and the confrontation is inevitable I'm goin' with the eyes.  At this point escalation of the attacker is not a factor and I'm assuming verbal judo failed.  I've never heard of tunnel vision in these regards.  Yea, I totally agree with coffee, cheaper on the aftermath as well! ;D

Karazenpo

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Re:Fighting!
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2003, 02:56:43 PM »
Ah, but KempoSensei in other countries such as the Middle East which we all know we're having our problems with take looking down as a sign of cowardice. Bill O'Reilly stated when he was out there during a past situation  (well before Iraqi Freedom) he was told if he came face to face with an armed rebel he was to state he was a journalist (in their language) and look at him right in the eye or he would be taken as a coward and shot. O'Reilly said sure enough he came around a corner during a situation and he was faced with a rebel soldier with an AK-47 about 20 feet away pointed at his head. He stated he was a journalist while looking at him straight in the eyes, the soldier lowered the gun and took off. O'Reilly said that advice saved his life. In my police work if an officer looks down while attempting to quell a situation with an aggressive, street tough subject-that subject will walk all over him! Literally!! And if looking at him in the eyes incites him, so be it, he was going to fight you anyway, at least you're in control as to win he attacks. This is my 27 years experience in law enforcement and I'm sure my brother officers will chime in. I was always taught it was the look in your eyes and the tone of your voice and that's the bottom line! ;)  "Eye of the Tiger" ;D

Offline John Bishop

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Re:Fighting!
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2003, 03:04:18 PM »
Surprising how many people will back down when you give them that "I'm Serious" look in the eyes.  Us old cops use to call it "command presence".
John Bishop  8th Degree-Original Method 
Under Grandmaster Gary Forbach
K.S.D.I. # 478, FMAA


"You watch, once I'm gone, all the snakes will start popping their heads up!"  Sijo Emperado

Jon Pack

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Re:Fighting!
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2003, 03:11:47 PM »
The eyes can be used to throw you off. Look at the NBA when a guy is driving the lane and looks off the defender and goes right by him, the defender is left there and needs a second to get his jock back on straight. I like to look at the lower neck area. The shoulders, hips and footwork can be used similar to a look off. Impossible to get thrown off by loooking at the centerline in this way.
Jon

TODD

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Re:Fighting!
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2003, 03:29:25 PM »
When dealing with an aggressive thug I look em' in the eyes and smile.  Show fear and they will attack, esp if there on something.  This works more times than it don't.  If I can put them to bed without writing a report I'm happy.  This is already in custody...I would not smile on the street. :o  I would however keep eye contact.  I agree with Shihan Joe, if there intent is to attack they will attack anyway.  
« Last Edit: October 22, 2003, 03:31:37 PM by Todd »

Offline D-Man

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Re:Fighting!
« Reply #11 on: October 22, 2003, 11:55:59 PM »
Wow, it's amazing how many different opinions there are on this.

I was always taught to have a soft focus at center mass (chest-stomach area).  The reason for this is so that you can see pretty much all of the opponent's tools.

In my opinion, the eyes are like windows to your sole, so good eye contact is important before physical altercations begin.  You see what they're all about, and you tell them what you are all about, through your eyes.

That being said, giving someone the right kind of eye contact during combat can definetley have effect, almost like a verbal or physical attack.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2003, 12:00:01 AM by D-Man »

Kempo-Sensei

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Re:Fighting!
« Reply #12 on: October 23, 2003, 08:29:43 AM »
In law enforcement your job is to take complete control over the situation so you can make an arrest or whatever.  The job of the military during war is to basically kill the opposition.  In both cases you are actively putting yourself into dangerous situations and you don't have the option to leave.  Me, I will leave if I can.  I will try to prevent the fight if I can.  Aggression feeds aggression.  

If I am walking down the street and some thug with a knife approaches me and wants my wallet, I give it to him.  If he gets in my face I try to look for avenues of escape.  If I try to stare down this guy with the "eye of the tiger" I am sure to have more problems than I want.

Try this drill out.  Have your partner take an aggressive stance against you.  You, just stand there perhaps with your hands raised to about chest level saying something like, "hey man, we don't have to do this."  Let you partner feel what's going on.  Then have your partner do the same thing only this time stare him right in the eyes & take a more of an aggresive stance back.  Then see how your partner reacts.

If you wish to raise the level of aggression that will be used against you, stare them right in the eyes.  Maybe you can stare them down, but if you don't, you better be able to hold your own.  I agree that if someone wishes to attack they will attack.  How hard do you want them to attack?  How much of your skills do you wish to present to the attacker before they attack?  Why not just say something like, "you don't want to mess with me, I hold 3 different black belts and have been training since the age of 2."

Final word for me is this: Civilians are much different than cops and military.  We have the option of doing everything we can to avoid the fight.  This is why police call for backup and the military sends out platoons instead of individuals.  They try to avoid the conflict if they can with a superior presence.  I don't wish to p|ss off my attacker and give him anymore reasons to shoot me, stab me or just beat the crap out of me.  Plus, I don't carry any weapons with me so avoidance is a much better option.

Nice talking with you Shihan!  Please call me John!  :)










Karazenpo

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Re:Fighting!
« Reply #13 on: October 23, 2003, 08:55:45 AM »
How are you, Senei. Long time, no hear from. Hope everything is well. I have to still respectively disagree. In any situation it is, as Sigung Bishop pointed out, your 'command presence' that is a factor and this can be related to civillians as well. It's how you carry yourself and like I stated, the look in your eyes and the tone of your voice. Contrary to what you are saying, the look in your eyes/tone of your voice has diffused or de-escalted more situations in both police and civillian encounters. I'm sure many will agree on this forum. Haven't we heard in self defense since day one that one of the pro-active things to do is when you walk down the street hold your head up high with self
 confidence and alertness and you will less likely fall victim---that the person who looks meek and unattentive, lacking self confidence by looking down as they walk would most likely be assaulted over the the first example! ;)  This basic premise has been taught for years to men & women and still hold true!  Respectfully, Shihan Joe

Kempo-Sensei

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Re:Fighting!
« Reply #14 on: October 23, 2003, 09:19:07 AM »
I am well, Shihan.  Thank you for asking.  I did close my school due to family reasons, but life is good.  Sensei Mike is trying to keep some aspect of the program going but is having a hard time getting a new space.

-------------------------

Walking down the street with confidence is different than staring the attacker in the eyes trying to mentally beat them before the strke is thrown.

I agree when we are walking we should display confidence.  And looking someone in the eyes, but not trying to stare them down, is good too in order to show that you are not an easy victim.

But I still disagree that the "average joe" should be trying to stare down the attacker.

At what point would you teach this technique?  After 3 months of training... 1 year?  Without true ability to back up your aggressive stare, you can really get yourself into a lot of trouble.

I don't think we should teach our students to use the "big dog" approach if they are still a puppy.


Always a pleasure!

:)


Ps.  I just had another thought.  Let's look at the hostage situation.  Do the police try and stare down the guy with the gun taped to the victim's head?  Do they use strong language in order to get the guy to give up?  Or do they try and difuse the situation and bring about a peaceful result?  Is the only goal to just apprehend the suspect or do they really wish to keep the victim safe?

What would happen if the police just stormed a bank with 20 hostages?