Can Karazonpo Go Shinjitsu and SKK be considered a type of Kajukenbo?

[NYSKempo]

Good morning
Many of us know that Karazenpo Go Shinjitsu and Shaolin Kempo Karate
stem from Kajukenbo. If the practicioners still consider themselves as a
Kajukenbo branch. Would members of the Original (and other) branches
of Kajukenbo consider them brothers/sisters in the art. It is just a thought
provoking question.
I have seen some Karazenpo people perform the Original Kajukenbo Palamas.
I have seen some practice SKK forms...What is your opinion?

[sleddog]

Welcome to the cafe.

Could you please identify yourself more completely?

This is a requirement of the cafe.

As to your question, they are definitely related. But is it a close or a distant relationship? Depends on the training methods as well as the forms used.

Like a lot of stuff, it all depends.

[Danjo]

Good morning
Many of us know that Karazenpo Go Shinjitsu and Shaolin Kempo Karate
stem from Kajukenbo. If the practicioners still consider themselves as a
Kajukenbo branch. Would members of the Original (and other) branches
of Kajukenbo consider them brothers/sisters in the art. It is just a thought
provoking question.
I have seen some Karazenpo people perform the Original Kajukenbo Palamas.
I have seen some practice SKK forms...What is your opinion?

Hi James,


Well, having studied both SKK and Kajukenbo, I'd say that the relationship is so distant that it's not the same thing at all. If there are Shaolin Kempo Karate guys doing Palama sets, it's because they added them later on (probably from the WKO or Panther Tapes). George Pesare was a purple belt under Gascon when he went to the East Coast to form his version of "Kempo" (which he later called "Kempo-Tai Kwon Do"). He had only 4 forms and 10 tricks to build on, but ultimately only retained part of one of them in his system. Nick Cerio was one of his black belts, and he in turn taught Fred Villari who termed his art Shaolin Kempo Karate. It's not really Kajukenbo at all anymore despite the fact that there may be a couple of guys out ther that have slapped on some Kaju forms to what they do.

The original Karazenpo was basically Kajukenbo re-named by Gascon and Walter Godin due to certain issues that Gascon had with the Kajukenbo folks. But currently what is called Karazenpo is nothing more than cross-ranked SKK guys (and Brad Namahoe who just teaches Kajukenbo under that name.) Karazenpo is just a name that houses a lot of cross-ranked people from other systems. There are no actual Karazenpo techniques per se.

[thetao]

"Karazenpo is just a name that houses a lot of cross-ranked people from other systems. There are no actual Karazenpo techniques per se."

There's a large gap, 9-10 years, between when Villari began teaching (1971) to the creation of the so called SKK.

In the early years the style was called Chinese Kempo and contained all the Karazenpo techniques up to Shodan along with the inclusion of  variations on kyokushin karate kata, Korean style kicking and multiple street weapon defense along with grab arts and boxing. Yes SKK consists of cross training in various arts but that goes back all the way to Proff. Chow (Kempo, jujitsu,boxing) and appears to be the heart and theory of Kajukenbo, the ability to utilze what works regardless of where it comes from.

[Danjo]

"Karazenpo is just a name that houses a lot of cross-ranked people from other systems. There are no actual Karazenpo techniques per se."

There's a large gap, 9-10 years, between when Villari began teaching (1971) to the creation of the so called SKK.

In the early years the style was called Chinese Kempo and contained all the Karazenpo techniques up to Shodan along with the inclusion of  variations on kyokushin karate kata, Korean style kicking and multiple street weapon defense along with grab arts and boxing. Yes SKK consists of cross training in various arts but that goes back all the way to Proff. Chow (Kempo, jujitsu,boxing) and appears to be the heart and theory of Kajukenbo, the ability to utilze what works regardless of where it comes from.

Wow, an old thread risen from the dead!

Well, I have watched George Pesare's dvd where he, Cerio and others demonstrate Pesare's Kempo-TKD. He didn't call it Karazenpo at all, and the techniques and forms that they show on the DVD are nearly identical to the SKK that was being taught by Villari and Mattera via the USSD, so not much changed between the early 60's and the mid 2000's in that system. Pesare very strongly claims that he alone created the art he taught to Cerio and who in turn taught it to Villari. After Fred Villari left Cerio and changed the name to SKK, Cerio greatly modified his Kempo so that the only ones teaching Pesare's stuff besides Pesare himself was Villari, Mattera and their offshoots.

[thetao]

Back from the dead, again. Don't read this very often.

Pesare states in an interview that he taught what he was taught by his instructors who he lists as Sonny Gascon as his original instructor. Yes Pesare received additional training in Escrima, Aikido, Judo and Tae Kwon Do obtaining BB rank in all AFTER hiis initial training with Gascon which he included in his adaptation of the art. Utilizing what he felt would work while eliminating things he did not.

Karazenpo was created by Gascon and Walter Godin while they were training in Kaju with John Leoning, another Kaju BB who was also receiving training in Choy Li Fut from Master Share Lew and while Godin was receiving training from Prof. Chow.

Godin and Gascon created various specific combinations, grab, knife, gun and club defenses along with specific katas from their combined kajukenbo, kung fu and kenpo training. The end result of their collaboration was what they called Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu which has specific techniques and principles.

Pesare took what he learned from Gascon and others, added and deleted as he saw fit for his version which was taught to Cerio.

Cerio also received additional training in karate, kung fu, jujitsu and Kenpo initially creating what he called Chinese Kenpo. This was the style taught to Villari who trained others in the art until 1980 when he created his version SKK.

The core of the original East Coast Chinese Kenpo was Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu along with added karate and Kenpo techniques Cerio had learned in his additional training.

Cerio then altered Chinese Kenpo to his version of Nick Cerio Kempo a completely different art.

Villari's SKK kept the core of Chinese Kenpo/Karazenpo up to Shodan where he then created everything else from that point from his own theories.

So long answer to a short question. the Kenpo Karate of Chow evolved to Sijo Emperado's Kajukenbo then to Karazenpo to Chinese Kenpo all different arts with a common link. The same styles no, but some similiarities in theory and execution yes. They all come from the same or similiar backgrounds of a mix of Kenpo, jujitsu, Kung Fu, Escrima, boxing, Karate etc.

[Danjo]

Back from the dead, again. Don't read this very often.

Pesare states in an interview that he taught what he was taught by his instructors who he lists as Sonny Gascon as his original instructor. Yes Pesare received additional training in Escrima, Aikido, Judo and Tae Kwon Do obtaining BB rank in all AFTER hiis initial training with Gascon which he included in his adaptation of the art. Utilizing what he felt would work while eliminating things he did not.

Karazenpo was created by Gascon and Walter Godin while they were training in Kaju with John Leoning, another Kaju BB who was also receiving training in Choy Li Fut from Master Share Lew and while Godin was receiving training from Prof. Chow.

Godin and Gascon created various specific combinations, grab, knife, gun and club defenses along with specific katas from their combined kajukenbo, kung fu and kenpo training. The end result of their collaboration was what they called Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu which has specific techniques and principles.

Pesare took what he learned from Gascon and others, added and deleted as he saw fit for his version which was taught to Cerio.

Cerio also received additional training in karate, kung fu, jujitsu and Kenpo initially creating what he called Chinese Kenpo. This was the style taught to Villari who trained others in the art until 1980 when he created his version SKK.

The core of the original East Coast Chinese Kenpo was Karazenpo Go Shinjutsu along with added karate and Kenpo techniques Cerio had learned in his additional training.

Cerio then altered Chinese Kenpo to his version of Nick Cerio Kempo a completely different art.

Villari's SKK kept the core of Chinese Kenpo/Karazenpo up to Shodan where he then created everything else from that point from his own theories.

So long answer to a short question. the Kenpo Karate of Chow evolved to Sijo Emperado's Kajukenbo then to Karazenpo to Chinese Kenpo all different arts with a common link. The same styles no, but some similiarities in theory and execution yes. They all come from the same or similiar backgrounds of a mix of Kenpo, jujitsu, Kung Fu, Escrima, boxing, Karate etc.

I have emails from Pesare where he claims to have created his art himself. The art he and his students demonstrate on his DVD are the same techniques that Villari and his student Matterra taught. Cerio's changes came after Villari left (as a 2nd degree).

Again, I also have it from Pesare's original students that he only had 10 techniques and 4 forms that he learned from Gascon. He was only a purple belt when he went back east. Of these, he only kept 1 of the 10 techniques and none of the forms. He would occasionally demonstrate the four forms he learned for his black belt students according to one I used to correspond with, but didn't teach them as part of his system.

So, SKK only has one of the combinations/punch counters that Pesare learned from Gascon and none of the forms. If one technique is enough to make something an off-shoot of Kajukenbo, then I guess that is a matter for debate.

Now, whatever Gascon and Walter Godin taught is beside the point because it's not what Villari taught. I also am pretty sure that Godin did not learn his material from John Leoning. He was one of Sijo and Joe Emperado's students I believe, as well as training under Chow. He was a brother-in-law of Gascon and went to help him teach for a while when Gascon had his Karazenpo school.

[punisher73]

There were other refinements to for Villari.

For example, when SKK #6 was first taught, it was very close to Punch Counter #1 in Kajukenbo.  Left brush block with a right inward hammer to the punching arm and then the kick.  Villari REALLY toned it down to make it alot easier for students and now you just have the step and kick with no arm movements.

[thetao]

I don't know what rank Pesare came back East  with , nor do I know that he was a purple belt, that only comes from you. According to Gascon he ( Pesare) is a BB.

Pesare has stated in interviews that he taught what he learned ! I don't know what he learned but I do know he was taught by Gascon who was/is a high rankng Kajukenbo BB before he achieved BB ranking in Tae Kwon Do, Aikido and judo.

Gascon Learned from Leoning and trained with his brother in-law Godin. The first four katas in Cerio and Villari's system were created by  Gascon and Godin. Where they devised them from or learned them from I don't know. If Gascon was Leoning's student and he created the katas ( 1-4 kata) with Godin it is simply an assumption it was from their training with Leoning. Maybe they us made them up. I don't know I wasn't there and neither were you.

It doesn't really matter where they came from. Gascon and Godin were both Kaju BB and they created Karazenpo from where who knows.

So whatever they created is not kajukenbo but there own system, no one said it was Kajukenbo only that it came from Kajukenbo.

So Danjo there is no point to this discusssion. Gascon, Godin, Pesare, Villari, you and I all do whatever we do.

Call it whatever, if it works its good, if it doesn't it isn't.

Be well and enjoy your training.

[thetao]

To Punisher.

Villari didn't ceate the so called SKK #6 and it isn't simply a kick.

Before the made up SKK it was called Chinese Kenpo from the lineage of Chow to Emperado to Leoning to Gascon to Pesare to Cerio to Villari and another lineage from Chow to Parker with Cerio to Villari.

There is a point to combination 6 which has nothing to do with the kick but most people teach it as the kick being the point which is wrong.

There is no block not to make the technique easier but beause the point in the technique is actually an evasion, the kick is simply an after the act response it could be a strike, a kick or a takedown.

Most SKK people don't even know the point of it and therefore people that see it don't uderstand it because their teachers dont even know it which I don't understand. I learned the technique and underlying principles from Villari.

Its not a watered down Kajukenbo copy but a specific seperate defense.

[Danjo]

The tales I heard came from one of Pesare's 8th degree black belts who is also a 5th degree under Villari and trained with Cerio and was ranked under him. Gascon was a brown belt when he left Leoning, and Godin didn't recieve rank from Leoning. Pesare was a purple belt when he left. I have an email from Gascon to that effect saying Pesare only trained with him a few months. Pesare ot his blavk belt from Gascon in the mail in 1968. He got his higher ranks in the 2000's. Trust me, I've researched this.