Author Topic: Count Dante- John Keehan  (Read 20866 times)

derek

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Re:Count Dante- John Keehan
« Reply #15 on: June 29, 2003, 01:12:42 PM »
i'm still pretty new to ma and have only a few years training, so feel free to correct me. heres what comes to mind for me.

seeing the ufc for the first time and up until now shows you alot of what real martial artist do under pressure against other pro's. beside some of the ground work and up against the cage, the stand up fighting is basicly identical to street fighting from what i see.a mix between boxing/kick boxing/muai thai(sp?) . minus eye gouging and such, still fair in my eyes cause they can't do it either and theres much more you can do besides that.

but notice you see no one really blocking, you see arms up in the air, heads ducking ,side stepping, back stepping. from what i see, when people get a onslaught of brutal, heavy strikes from someone they know will knock them out if hit good, blocking don't come to mind for them. they move themself to take them out of from being targeted, like boxers do. does it make more sense to try and move your head to a location where he has to compensate to find and hit the target and still have your hands ready , rather than relying on your judgement to find where his fist and arm are gonna be to block it and if you don't your arms stuck out there?  i don't know?

also maybe he said this with a brutal attack in mind, if someone comes at you full force, fist swinging in close, i'm not gonna try and block- lol thats just me, i'm still new! i would depend on both ways i guess, if someone just threw one punch out of the blue, i would block since moving alot would be to slow.

my outlook on rapid hand fire(for what it's worth-lol)

i would take the couple of blows that will take him out rather than the more speedy frequent hits.  reason being that i would rather rely on connecting with a couple or few hits and end it, rather than trying to connect a bunch of times times to set up for a big blow, if your close enough to hit him make sure it takes him out, i would think, cause he might duck or move a few times and get you with a finishing blow,even though you might connect some of them. ofcourse it won't take much to attack an eye or throat. i guess dante would rather go for the knockout or solar plex ect., to take him out as quickly as possible, more hits equals more time. he wouldn't expect to be standing there long enough for someone to keep jabbing or connect with 10 hits, get in and get it over with.
jabs work well but i would think dante meant that you shouldn't be taking time to stay on the outside and throw a few jabs, or take them.

i see this in the ufc, boxing/kickboxing, when it's a controlled pace the fighters use jabs to stay away and controll, setup ect. but this leaves room for the other guy to do the same and just prolongs the fight. but when you see one guy throw fist like no tomorrow and charge in it confuses the other guy and he's almost disabled for the moment. a boxers jab will be effective on the street and just like blocking and multiple fast hits, they all have there place. but dante style focuses on get in quick, hit the hardest and get it over with. jabs rely on the snap, like dante said, if he moves a little the snap is off, plus it rarley ever takes out an opponent and seems more suitable for gaining points in boxing, wearing him down, a paced fight. although it does set up good and has it's place on the street.

what do i know- lol
i agree with what shihan joe said though, it's not like i  think dante's right and thats it, it's just another outlook that i like and might stay my main outlook. the more ways to do things the better i feel though, every situation is different.


derek

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Re:Count Dante- John Keehan
« Reply #16 on: June 29, 2003, 01:40:37 PM »
oh and as far as the events that happened that have no dates or places pertaining to dante and the system. grandmaster william aguiar (dante copyright holder) just moved down the street from where they were, and his son bill made it sound like they had ALOT of documented stuff they had to move along with the dojo. i have no clue what it all is but someday i hope i find out.  they would be best to comment any of that, not sure if they ever wanted to or did release any of it, but i'm sure they know the truth more than anyone really. i never knew much of anything about dante when i trained there, i just knew i liked how they taught.

Offline John Bishop

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Re:Count Dante- John Keehan
« Reply #17 on: June 29, 2003, 02:23:17 PM »
I have to agree with Shihan Joe.  John Keehan was at one time considered a exceptional martial artist, and if you weed thru a lot of the B.S. he wrote to sell books, you will find some good principles.
But the things he talked about were done in Kajukenbo 15-20 years before his writing.  Hard contact training. Working from more upright boxing stances. (Kajukenbo founder Peter Choo, and early student Marino Tiwanak, were both champion boxers.) And blocks meant to damage the attacking limbs instead of just blocking.

As to just throwing a couple effective blows: how many blows will miss your target before you land the 2 good solid blows?  Well executed and perfectly targeted strikes only happen in the movies.  
As I understand it the philsophy behind repetitive striking, it is to take advantage of your opportunity to deliver strikes while inside someones defenses.  Even if the majority of the strikes do not inflict severe damage they work to overwhelm and soften up the attackers defenses, allowing for a powerful solid strike.  And there again, is a full power punch to the solar plexes more effective than a less powerful strike/rake to the eyes, groin, or throat?

There's a documented story about the early days of full contact karate.  When it was first getting off the ground in the early late 60s early 70s a team match was set up between the mainland and Hawaii.  The heavyweight fighter from the mainland was Everett "Monster Man" Eddy.  He was called "Monster Man" because of his size and power.  He was a tournament champion who was a tae kwon do stylist, and noted for his agressiveness.  Well, the Hawaiians didn't have any black belts big enough to fight in his division, so they got their biggest student, a purple belt named Victor Raposa.  Raposa was a purple belt from Walter Godin's and Martin Buell's Kajukenbo/Kenpo school.  Anyway, Raposa knocked the "Monster Man" out.  Chuck Liddell, one of todays best "no holds barred" fighters comes from that same Kajukenbo lineage.  
Before the days of civil liability all Kajukenbo schools were full contact.  
       
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Karazenpo

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Re:Count Dante- John Keehan
« Reply #18 on: June 29, 2003, 02:39:04 PM »
Hey Derek, you make some good points but let me explain a little more how I see it. I agree that blocking should be kept to a minimum because it puts off what your there to do, hit him. However 2 points. There are two types of attackers when it comes to throwing a punch on the street. Now, remember, I'm narrowing this down to a puncher. He either comes at you with arms flailing attempting to 'blitz' you or saves everything for that one big punch, usually a 'sucker' punch. I have only used a block one a sucker type punch. The big committed blow, not on blitzing. Unfortunately, against the 'blitzer', you will more than likely have to take some to give some. That's why boxing and kickboxing are important tools to the martial artist. They are 'live' arts. Know matter how you cut it, the UFC fighters are still fighting for sport. They are trained and programed for combinations and mutiple punching, over powering the opponent and thus winning the bout. The guy on the street, many times is trying to drop that one big bomb, the sucker punch. He totally committs himself to it and he attempts to set you up while he's talking to you. Just recently in Warwick, R.I. not far from me, a street gang member walked in front of this guy minding his own business and threw a big haymaker knocking him to the pavement. I observed this first hand as many did not becuase I was there but because the punk's friends filmed it and it was shown all over the news. You could clearly see this would be a simply punch to block with all the time in the world because it came from 'downtown' as they say, still had good power but really telegraphed.
Whenever you have a chance watch actually videos and news clips of actually assaults, such as at sporting events, parents at their kid's games, convience store and gas station robberies, anytime the bad guy is caught on tape. That is what you will be a victim of more than running into someone who fights with the style of the UFC fighters. Of course, you have to train to try to protect yourself against people like that also but more than likely the style of assaults caught on these real life tapes I mentioned is what you will run into most of the time. Study them, you'll see what I mean. Remember too, Derek, that power blocks are really strikes or punches but your target is the arm in an attempt to disable it rather than going for the torso or head. It's simply a choice of targets-'attack blocks', many forget that concept.
  Okay, on boxer's jabs. Jabs were never meant to put anyone down for the count but they do all the time. Right now you probably think I'm nuts but let me run this past you. The 60's boxer I mentioned earlier had just got through winning a championship fight. He was being interviewed by a sports reporter who was complimenting him on his right hook that took his opponent down to the canvas. Floyd Patterson kept telling him , no!, it was my left jab. The reporter getting fustrated asked Patterson if he wished to review the fight tapes. Patterson then told him again it was his left jab and simply added, 'if it wasn't for my left jab that right hook would have never got in!" True story. Even on the street Derek, you may have to 'set' someone up. We did it when I was in school 30-40 years ago but it was called 'dirty' fighting and was unacceptable but do you know how many guys got beat up by someone they probably had the ability to beat because the other kid set him up with a kick to the groin and then blitzed him with punches.  Think about it!

Karazenpo

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Re:Count Dante- John Keehan
« Reply #19 on: June 29, 2003, 02:45:08 PM »
Sigung John, I posted before reading your reply and as you can see we are totally on the same page, blocking and everything. It's funny, one of the guys I had in mind when I wrote the post was "Monster Man" Eddy, I just didn't mention his name. It was said he couldn't make that transition to full contact successfully because he basically had a 'glass jaw'. Well said, Sigung! ;)

derek

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Re:Count Dante- John Keehan
« Reply #20 on: June 29, 2003, 03:28:28 PM »
great post gentelmen, i understand and agree 100%. i look at dante's view as added thought, different ways of doing things with a different outlook for a different situation, kinda like tank abbot style .  offcourse i would like to do the jeff speakman hand drill on someone - lol

hopefully the dante site will get some of that documented info to clear up a little of the mystery surrounding the dante world and happenings.  

 ;Dthanks for the input guys

derek

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Re:Count Dante- John Keehan
« Reply #21 on: June 29, 2003, 05:22:27 PM »
couple more things maybe you can clear up guys. and i am no way challenging what you guys say, you got much more experience, i'm not trying to be a smart @ss, just observing and learning why some people say the glass is half full when others think it's half empty.

"And blocks meant to damage the attacking limbs instead of just blocking"

wouldn't this put your arm at risk of being hurt too, i wouldn't want to block a really hard kick or strike , i would hope i can move to the side/behind, the safest place, no? and if most people throw hook bombs(no offense to joes situation), and also a hook punch would  come from the side, meaning that the forearm would seem at an angle that won't make flush contact with a block .seems you have to stick your arm way out and you lose power in the block for the damage.  i had someone stand in front of me and put their fist to my head like it landed and the only place i see on the bent arm to block is the inside elbow crease from the bend of the arm. the forearm is angled and makes you reach a little for the elbow crease, way out of form it seems, almost to the side of you to keep the punch away . how excactly would you block this. i must admit, i have blocked like this and it does work, but it was telegraphed from an amatuer and i stepped to the side and blocked my own kinda way.it was coming from my left, i put up my right hand to the side of my face it would have hit, my left arm kinda circled around and ended up across his chect for a throw down, the sidestep is what i think put me in good position.if i had not sidestepped, another punch was shortly behind it and i was to the side doing the takedown. worked good! not always the case on street.

"As to just throwing a couple effective blows: how many blows will miss your target before you land the 2 good solid blows?  Well executed and perfectly targeted strikes only happen in the movies"

i guess the rate at which you would miss would be a little worse considering more power is a little slower, but you throw more than two to land two, just like with mul. fast strikes. i'm sure with fast and multiple strikes you would have misses too, no?  don't you still have to execute the moves and target them perfectly just the same with multiple fast strikes? maybe more? i would think power mostly for center mass, solar, middle of the head would be easier to hit  than just  eyes for gouging, or a throat or groin, you might just scratch his forhead with the rake- lol. that sounds harder to target than center mass. i thought dante meant, if you can hit your opponent to stun him, you should have just taken him out. i agree that setting up is good too, don't get me wrong. dante has eye rakes too, i'm just babbling.

i thought the stand up fighting in ufc looked no different than street fighting, like a boxer on the street.  infact tank abbot had no skills, just a brawler. now he does but not in the beggining, if memory serves me good. made no differnce against people that trained for the sport ufc, he knocked them out almost every time, or kept up.  at the hardlest level of contact where you guys train, how is it different than ufc. it seems you can't possible get any more brutal and more to real life. you guys don't knee to the head full force and split heads open do you, or elbow, eye gouge, groin?

i'm confused on the ufc thing

Offline John Bishop

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Re:Count Dante- John Keehan
« Reply #22 on: June 29, 2003, 06:17:50 PM »
Derek:

You know it's really hard to picture the situations your describing and then describe a counter.  These are things best done on the mat.
I don't know if your a Kajukenbo stylist, but to answer some of your questions.  

Attacking the attackers limb?
In Kajukenbo we have blocks and parrys that I haven't really seen in other traditional systems.  Some of our techniques come from the Filipino systems, where the bottomfist strike is used to strike the muscles of the attacking arm.  It is also used at times to attack leg.
We also have a "Long Outward" block that is used against hook punches.  If the forearms are conditioned well, they can actually break the attackers arm.  Also on a roundhouse punch, if you move in with the long outward block you will contact the inside of the attackers elbow, one of the weakest links in the arm.

Repetitive striking?
Every part of the body feels pain.  If you punch someone in the arms and shoulders, they still feel pain, and eventually they can no longer raise their arms to attack or block.
The chest and stomach have very large muscle groups that can take some really solid blows.  Weak spots would be the solar plexus, armpits (very little muscle covering the ribs), kidney area, neck and throat, collar bones, nose, anywhere along the spine, most joints, etc, etc.
With Kajukenbo you also have the chokes of judo and the joint dislocations of jujitsu.  
But like I said you really can't discuss these things well without getting on the mat and looking first hand at the attack.
In the martial arts documentary "The Warrior Within" Shaka Zulu made a statement that has stuck in my mind ever since.  He said he had enough techniques in his system and katas that he was now in a position where he could "create in the misdst of battle".   In other words he felt his proficency in a large number of techniques allowed him to create a defense to any attack as it was happening.  Nice position to be in ;)

As to the realism of the UFC's?
The realism is somewhat limited by the facts that they fight on a padded floor in the confines of a ring or cage.  And they do have rules.  I mean you have to have rules, or somebody is going to die.  But in real life if you were taken to the ground by someone who outweighted you by 50 pounds, you'd probably have a problem winning by the rules.  So, would you let somebody choke you unconscious, possible killing you or breaking your neck.  Or would you break the rules and attack the eyes, groin, or bite.
Now if you were a BJJ stylist and you were attacked on the street by 2 or 3 people would you take one to the ground and choke him out?

When most of us started out in the martial arts we had a lot of "what if" questions.  Thru patience, practice, and experience we started to learn some of the answers.  And when we tied on our first black belt, we really realized that we we just beginning to find the answers, and we would spend the rest of our lives learning more answers, because every answer brings with it a new question.    
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Karazenpo

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Re:Count Dante- John Keehan
« Reply #23 on: June 29, 2003, 06:55:09 PM »
No problem, Derek. How is one to learn if they do not ask questions.

Power blocking: I only teach power blocking to soft tissue, muscle or fragile areas. For instance, someone takes a swing at you. You step inside the punch, jam his centerline while throwing an inside hammer fist. Now, this hammer can go to the head or side of neck or simply bypass the head and strike the bicep with full power. You may also strike the mound at the top of the forearm where the medial nerve passes or you can come in straight with a palm strike and stop the punch from where it originates in the upper body, the shoulder girdle, very fragile and not difficult to dislocate.

Stunning blows vs. one or two all out blows: Dante's theory on that is great in the perfect world but fighting is dynamic and constantly moving by his own addmission. Therefore, one is not always set to throw that full power shot. You're just not set. Did you ever play baseball? You're up for bat and you get your pitch, you know, the one you usually hit out of the park? but this time something just wasn't right with your stance, balance, timing, whatever, and you hesitate and it blows by you! This is the same thing. Half a loaf of bread is better than nothing at all and if your not ready for a totally committed strike you're better off with the stunners. Same thing with the above mentioned power blocks. You can only use them if you're ready and stable, otherwise they will fail. We can still throw the speed strikes even if we don't have the balance and stability that is neccessary, that can distract and buy us time for the full power shots. You see, derek, in the perfect world or in a movie you always have the balance, stability and timing for that one punch stop, not so in real life.

UFC, is it like the real world?: Yes and no. The odds of you being attacked by a professional "anything goes" fighter exist of course, but are very slim. Your training should encompass preparing you for such an event should it happen, perhaps with some good tactical  stratagies and some 'tricks' and keep in mind anyone can be beaten. Who the heck ever thought a third rate boxer like Buster Douglas would knock Mike Tyson out in his heyday in the third round so never give up, it's all heart at that point. However, more than likely in your lifetime if you encounter anyone at all it will be the street thug, nut case, tough guy with an attitude or all round hoodlum as depicted in those real life "caught on tape" videos I discussed earlier. These people, however, should not be under estimated either!

Does a real fight look more like a UFC match or a "Chuck Norris" or "Steven Seagal" movie? In my humble opinion, it looks more like a combination of the UFC and the WWE Monday Night Raw in most cases and that's the truth. Remember that Wing Chun guy, I think his name was William Cheung or something like that, got jumped by someone while he was conducting a seminar? it didn't look like 'sticky hands' to me, lol.
You see, derek, here's how I feel about training. It's like if you're going to fight a three round kickboxing match, you'll train for a five or six rounder, maybe more if you want. In the arts I have this philosophy: try to get it as good as you can and then some in your training and you have a better shot at having the art work for you in some way, shape or form. It most likey and hardly ever is as picture perfect in the dojo against a  formidable opponent on the street. I know some people could come back at me and say hey, I did this and that in a street fight and it was pretty much like how I practice it. Well, hey, I said formidable or let's say worthy opponent, as a cop I've tangled with some suspects I could have done a 'kata' on and beat and others I had to pull every trick out of the bag and then some ;) I hope this answers your questions, Derek. I would like to hear from Sigung Bishop and Professor Scott on this, I'm sure sure they can give some excellent real world scenerios. Respectfully, Shihan Joe
« Last Edit: June 29, 2003, 07:11:12 PM by Shihan Joe Shuras »

derek

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Re:Count Dante- John Keehan
« Reply #24 on: June 29, 2003, 07:26:29 PM »
"I don't know if your a Kajukenbo stylist"  

no sir, wouldn't mind it one bit though. i have minimal experience in the dante system and will return soon, after too long of a break. i like what i read and hear about kajukenbo though.

thanks for the replies

Offline John Bishop

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Re:Count Dante- John Keehan
« Reply #25 on: June 29, 2003, 07:43:34 PM »
Derek: Your welcome ;) .  Feel free to visit and ask away.  There's so much we can all learn from the differant arts.  
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Karazenpo

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Re:Count Dante- John Keehan
« Reply #26 on: June 30, 2003, 08:22:17 AM »
Derek, in further reviewing the article here is another point I totally agree with:

One important factor to keep in mind is that a man may have speed, technique and form, but if he does not have power and courage he has nothing. Also, if a man has power or courage often he can win on either of these merits alone.

Another thing I don't agree with is the down play of forms and here's why. Forms are a tool, a training aid to be able to solo practice to keep your movements sharp and focused. It's a way to practice the basic structure of your training and keeping it fine tuned while giving your body a rest from the punishment of contact-type training. Let's face it, you can't train like that all the time without a break and you certainly can't train like that forever. Forms are a method of moving meditation. You may also adjust the speed for a paced aerobic workout to strengthen your cardiovascular system or an explosive, intense, anerobic type workout to simulate the endurance neccessary for a street fight situation. Forms aren't the end all and they certainly can't substitute for contact training but they definitely have their place. It's too bad the Count missed on that point. If you stay with the arts I think you will reach this conclusion on your own. Look at it this way, wind sprints, pushups, body crunches and rope skipping are certainly not contact methods of self defense, however, they indirectly assist at making you a stronger fighter. Treat forms the same way and you will most definitely benefit from them. Back in my very early days I felt the same way as John Keehan about the practice of kata but over the years I have seen their value. ;)

derek

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Re:Count Dante- John Keehan
« Reply #27 on: June 30, 2003, 02:41:26 PM »
ya, i think forms(kata) can help, not 100 of them, but some. just because like you said, you can use it for excercise and also to keep the flow of the body going for speed and combo's ect..    as far as i know, we didn't have kata at aguiars beside the dance of death, if thats one?, iv'e yet to see it yet and think it's for higher ranks. at the same time though i see myself doing light practice like this on bags and thai pads ect. some schools like it to get the creative thinking going and combo's and ect. with kata, i never liked the idea but it has it's place. i would like to hit something when training, but kata is like the first portion of class, gets  you in tune and cardio going, keeps things in check.

with my limited knowledge, and trusting the dante way(aguiar too) not doing kata will not make you a lesser fighter. i will use the gym for my weight training and cardio, and the bags and pads for it also, but to build power and combo's, speed and agility. kinda like the brick breaking, i don't care for it, but it has it's place.

i wouldn't mind learning a few just to start me off, then i will blend it to what i would feel and like.

i think dante(from how bill thinks) means that to many schools rely on forms and have to many of them. isn't there schools (some kempo )that have ALOT of them. i think learning to many will just waste good dojo time, and time at home if you gotta learn so many for each testing. there are schools who use some of it to add diversity and then some have too many and rely on it too much and think it's got combat effectiveness, you can't rely on which of the 100 kata can i use(remember) in a fight, you do what comes naturaly(your own kata). students starting out get the wrong idea about it. i would rather practice hitting something to gain power, speed and cardio and do it in a way that comes naturaly, not preplanned.
while it can help to a degree, i won't get heavy into it.


you gotta think though, every artist has their own views and just like me and you guys, i will create in the end what i think is best from what i learned. between dante and aguiar, they have had extensive training with some respectable people. many of dantes students were thugs and gangsters, mobsters ect. so his ways were put to use very often on and off the streets as you can imagine.

aguiar has had plenty of training in various styles besides dante' system.
6th Dan Chuan Fa Kempo (Kung Fu) 10th Dan Minna Jiu-Jitsu under Frank Kovaks -- 5th Dan Yawara Ryu Jiu-Jitsu -- 4th Dan Chung Do Kwan / Tae Kwan Do (Korean Karate) -- Shorie - Goju (Okinawan Karate) -- as well as Black Belts in Ju -Te Aikido / bo-ki-bo, and 6th Kodokan Judo under Phil Porter.

point is, you got the glass half empty half full thing going on in martial arts. i'm sure i'll have a better understanding of things and know what i want to do once i get to higher ranks. for now it's trust, learning and perspective thinking, then experience will ultimatly point me to what i think is right. and you guys help man!

dante, or anyone for that matter, i'm sure that they all have something in the style that someone else will not totaly agree with.just like you said joe, when i get more experience i will decide what i would have done, with no one being right or wrong, or missing something. like kicking, for the most part we are taught it's mostly for transportation and some lower kicks, while others will throw them high. some people will be ok with it, some will get thier foot caught and taken to the ground. even though aguiars teach the higher kicks, they will tell you to be carefull and stress how dangerous it could be, it's better to know it than maybe not use it, than not be good at it at all.

just like bjj, i wouldn't think of taking someone to the ground to choke him, especialy if theres more than one attacker. but you never know when you might need to know it. someone might take you down, or a friend of a friend might start a fight and that might be the choice to shut him up without hospitalization, unless the situation seems deadly. aguiar is certified to teach gracie jj, completely street minded, no, but it rounds out with the stand up fighting.

moral to this story? i don't know, i'm a newbie- lol


Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re:Count Dante- John Keehan
« Reply #28 on: June 30, 2003, 02:55:27 PM »
"as far as i know, we didn't have kata at aguiars beside the dance of death, if thats one?,"

This is our club name for a two part dance.  Since I have not been able to find any published kata with the same moves as the 2nd part, I suspect it was added.  The first
part is a form of the Naihanchi/Tekki series.  

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derek

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Re:Count Dante- John Keehan
« Reply #29 on: June 30, 2003, 04:02:14 PM »
incase anyone is wondering or get bored, i stop by not only the countdante.com board but another site thats a extension of it. they all seem to have the same views or have trained in the dante style.

http://pub117.ezboard.com/fmadmonksrealkaratefrm2

they could add to alot of the ideas going around and are very proffesional and easy to get along with. hey, just like you guys!  them two sites are not very busy but have good post also, theres some info there that i really like. a dance of death thread also there.