Author Topic: 500 Techniques? Overload or What?  (Read 17301 times)

Karazenpo

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Re: 500 Techniques? Overload or What?
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2003, 11:41:27 AM »
Sigung Joe, I couldn't have said it better in so few words. That is the point I am trying to make. Professor Nick Cerio once told me that 20-30 techniques are enough, technically, to make up any system. He felt if these techniques are balanced enough then they should hold the principles and concepts of that system. He also said show me more and I will show you that they are just variations of those 20-30 techniques. Grandmaster S. George Pesare has the same philosophy(Professor Cerio made his original Black Belt under Gm. Pesare). Variations were always encouraged by these two masters but you were reminded they came from a limited number of techniques that formed the 'backbone' of your system. I, myself, have noticed that the more techniques you lay claim to, the more you realize they are either variations or hybrids of the 'base' techniques of that particular system. Sometimes a novice does not see this but most veteran martial artist will totally pick up on this observation. Even though Professor Cerio continued his studies with such other notables as Master Bill Chun Sr., Professor Chow, Tadashi Yamashi_ta and others, he always maintained that concept he first learned from Gm. Pesare. Also, didn't Professor Chow teach only 12 techniques that he referred to as 'line drills'? Sigung Joe, Imho, you're right on the money. These techniques are merely vehicles to nurture your 'conceptual' thinking which will result in 'reflexive conditioned responses' so vital in street survival. ;)  Shihan Joe
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »

Offline sig666+

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Re: 500 Techniques? Overload or What?
« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2003, 07:46:30 AM »
Hi Its in My concept too explain some of the so call
500 tech... form were I come we do have more than  

500 tech, and i can explain it..

Kajukenbo is and will be a martial art that because the fornder is still alive he kept on developing the art and so too this day he keep on doing so. kajukenbo has a well arsenal of techniques. and they are in groups of 5  in wish there is 30 per group

if you count
tricks, grapart, foot movments, takedown, drills, counters, two man attact, dragons and tigers techniques in each clasification here has 30 techniques this come two 270 techniques. this not counting the alphabet that has also two versions.
 
270*5 = 1,350
as you can see kajukenbo did not stop developing in the 40th but continue developing today.
there are some Professors like 9 degree Jaime basques hawaii , Prof: emil batista vallejo CA, Prof Cherry Ortega PR and Sigung Ray New Jersey.that has most of them. ???
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »

Karazenpo

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Re: 500 Techniques? Overload or What?
« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2003, 09:01:51 AM »
  Hi, respectfully sir, in my humble opinion, there is no system that has 1,350 techniques that are not variations, hybrids and/or as Mr. Parker referred to them as 'extentions'.  Not to mention, I would be in awe to see anyone in any system bang off over 1000 techniques in succession!  Never seen it, never will!
   I also don't see the purpose. I am not a Parker black belt but I adopted some of his ideas because they made a lot of sense. One of them was 'Kenpo is formulated as encounters occur'. Nobody should walk into an encounter prearranging what they are going to do, per se, maybe strategize a little, but that's it. They go into situations (providing they're not jumped unsuspectedly) with concepts. Example: an assailant weilding a bat. My training has honed into my subconscious that when I see that bat  it is a stimuli that triggers a conditioned response. Now, if I am not ready to disarm him as he swings then my response, conceptually and innately, is to move to another plane or duck! It doesn't matter what I do, as long as I avoid the swing. If, however, I am ready to disarm, the concept of jamming and trapping / grabbing comes into play. By then I am in a  in-close combat postion, so the concept of 'telephone booth boxing' kicks in. Exactly what I will do will be dictated by many variables and cannot be preconceived. The variables are many. Height and weight of the attacker, how the attacker moves and what he does while in close combat, his tolerance or intolerance for pain, his animal drive, etc.
   Techniques, in my opinion should teach one how to move and when to move. In other words they should teach proper body mechcanics, timing and controlling distance. Each one should have a specific concept that it is trying to relate to the practitioner guided by principles, the natural laws or mechcanics of motion.
Since fighting is dynamic, ever-changing, then techniques as Mr. Parker states must be formulated as encounters occur. Hense, the technique is merely the vehicle to teach the student a concept of handling fairly generalized and in some cases specific attacks (guns, knives, club, chain, etc.)
   The human body is limited to how it can attack, with or without weapons. Generally speaking, we deal with two arms and two legs and a head butt or two, lol. There are a limited number of ways one is attacked as there are a limited number of ways one can throw a punch, kick or a grab, etc., the rest are just slight variations. Therefore, there are only a limited number of responses to those attacks plus of course their variations which is why I feel that 500 plus techniques aren't the answer. There are only really just eight blocks, all contained within a circle, the rest are just variations & hybrids, think about it! Besides, how would one even go about attempting to practice 1,350 techniques, if they were hypothetically, totally different techniques. It wouldn't be practical even if it were possible. :)   Hey, again, I submit this respectfully as how I was trained over 30 years in the arts and almost 27 as a police officer.    Shihan Joe
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:05 PM by -1 »

Offline John Bishop

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Re: 500 Techniques? Overload or What?
« Reply #18 on: May 02, 2003, 09:59:07 AM »
Kajukenbo has almost become as generic a name as Karate.  Just as there are many styles of Karate, there are many expressions of Kajukenbo.  

The 4 main styles of the Kajukenbo system are:  
"Original (Kenpo) Method", "Chuan Fa", "Tum Pai", and  "Won Hop Kuen Do".  

There are sub-styles of these four main branches:
"Gaylord Method", "Ramos Method, "Kajuke"m"bo", "Kajukenpo", "Kajukenbo Kosho Ryu", "Kajukenbo Ho-Fi", "Kajukenbo Advanced Method", "Kajukenbo Noble System", "Kajukenbo Poison Hand", "Karazempo Goshin Jitsu", "Kenkabo", etc., etc.

So I guess if you put all the variations of techniques from these subsystems together you could come up with a couple thousand techniques.  But it would take a lifetime to become proficient at just a couple hundred.

Sijo Emperado has on 2 occassions supervised and endorsed the documentation of the techniques on video tape of the "Kajukenbo Original (Kenpo) Method".  Both these tape series were made by Prof. Gary Forbach with the assistance of other high ranking black belts from the Grandmaster Aleju Reyes lineage.  

The first series was produced by Panther Productions, which is now owned by Century Martial Arts.  
The second series were produced by "Sijo Emperado's World Kajukenbo Organization", a joint venture between Sijo Emperado and Prof. Forbach to market training tapes, materials, and seminars.

The techniques of the "Original (Kenpo) Method"endorsed and supervised by Sijo Emperado on these tapes are:
Palama Sets 1-14 (formerly know as Pinians)
Grab Arts 1-15
Punch Counters 1-21
Club Counters 1-13
Knife Counters 1-15
2 Man Defenses 1-8
3 Man Defense 1
Alphabets A-G  (there are 26 alphabets total, but to date only A-G have been video taped)

These are the techniques of the "Original (Kenpo) Method", and they have been recorded on video with Sijo Emperado's endorsement and supervision, and provide historical documentation of true techniques that he taught.        
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »
John Bishop  8th Degree-Original Method 
Under Grandmaster Gary Forbach
K.S.D.I. # 478, FMAA


"You watch, once I'm gone, all the snakes will start popping their heads up!"  Sijo Emperado

Karazenpo

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Re: 500 Techniques? Overload or What?
« Reply #19 on: May 02, 2003, 11:03:55 AM »
Thank you, Sigung Bishop. The number of the techniques in Sijo Emperado's 'Original Method', imho, if I may so say, are inline with my past training and provides for a solid and well balanced curriculum.  :)
                                                    
                                                Respectfully, Shihan Joe
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »

Jon Pack

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Re: 500 Techniques? Overload or What?
« Reply #20 on: May 02, 2003, 11:08:31 AM »
Wow great stuff everybody!
The Tracy's Kempo System is the one that has 602 techiques.
Parker system is 254 if I am not mistaken(Several of these are follow ups or EXTENSIONS). My interest in the (AKKS) system is the appraoch to situational self defense techniques which I felt the SKK system(Kajukenbo sub-system) lacked.
You would have to take a great amount of time and imagination to adapt the systems punch counters/one step techniques to work in different situations that the AKKS system has layed out so nicely. Not that the time isn't well spent adapting the others,
we do this and find it valuable.
*Better to know one technique that works every time in any situation than 602 that will never work.

I have been without a teacher for the last oh... almost two years. In many ways this has been a blessing. Not only have I spent a great deal of time digesting what I have learned to this point but also sought out all the systems that have the Chow influence. Mostly looking to round out areas that I have seen as lacking.
We are not lacking for forms or punch counters.
But the areas of situational self defense, weapons defense and weapons usage have been somewhere along the way less emphasized or completely left out.
I must say that I have just recently delved into the Kajukenbo system with the Halbuna tapes and appreciate the listings of the other tapes endorsed by Sijo.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »

Karazenpo

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Re: 500 Techniques? Overload or What?
« Reply #21 on: May 02, 2003, 12:42:23 PM »
Hey Jon, how ya doing? Hope all is well. I finally left United Studios in '81. I started in Goju in '73 and switched to USSD in '74. Most of my instruction was from Hanshi Craig Seavey back then who is currently co-head of the Nick Cerio organization. I have to say he supplied an excellent foundation that had also stressed weapons defenses and situational self defense techniques which from what I understood came from his own training in Shaolin Kempo along with some life experience. So I don't know what happened down the road as to why that was not stressed in your curriculum many years later. Sometimes when you expand so big in so short a period of time, quality control suffers and some things get left by the wayside. :(
   As far as traditional weapons training goes, there was really no emphasis placed on them. Professor Cerio told me he never taught weapons to Gm. Villari outside of , I believe the knife. When I studied there were only two required weapon forms, one bo and one Japanese sword. That was it, unless you made up your own or got something from someone elses system. That didn't bother me at all because everything else was there and was taught in a no nonsense, practical way. That is the  reason why I switched from the traditional Okinawan Goju school. The 'stuff' I was learning was working.  I don't know how it is now or when you were studying, I have been out of touch for so long.         Shihan Joe
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:05 PM by -1 »

Karazenpo

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Re: 500 Techniques? Overload or What?
« Reply #22 on: May 02, 2003, 01:25:59 PM »
To Jon Pack:  Jon, I have the original curriculum that came from the Villari organization back from, I believe 1971. It was at the Framingham studio where I started and was there when Hanshi Seavey was in charge back around '73. The building permit at the sschool was dated in 1971. I know this because I later became partners with Hanshi.  It was one of the first studios after Waltham, Ma. This is an original and most likely the first curriculum because Villari left Cerio in 1971. Let me dig it up and I'll post it for you.
                                                            Shihan Joe
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »

Karazenpo

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Re: 500 Techniques? Overload or What?
« Reply #23 on: May 02, 2003, 04:01:42 PM »
 Okay Jon, I got it! :)  I'll just get to the last rank requirements which is the curriculum listed for 1st Degree Black Belt. Remember, when he left Professor Cerio, he was a probationary 2nd dan. He had #6 Kata but that was a requirement instituted by Gm. George Pesare for 2nd dan and this curriculum is for up to 1st dan.  Hansuki was the last form he left Cerio with. He got this from Nick's brother, Frank without the Professor's permission. Hansuki was a chosen form, not for the ranking structure but to be given to chosen black belts irregardless of rank. A lower dan could get it over a higher dan. I was told this by Master Bill Chun Jr.-  real nice guy!  :)    Master Bill Chun Sr. had chosen the Professor. The Professor had chosen his brother, Frank. The rest........we'll just leave alone for now. ;)   Here goes!

Combinations: 1-21, 26 & 28

Punch Techniques: 24

Knife: 9

Club: 9

Gun: 6

Grabs: Any number.   *Jon, for Green, this sheet had 10
                                    grabs but for any promotion after
                                    that it just listed 'Any number'.

Forms: 1-5 Pinan, 1-5 Kata & Stature of the Crane, 8 Point Blocking System, 10 Point Blocking System and Plum Tree Blocking System.

_____________________________________________
*Note: Jon, the 8 pt. was inadvertantly omitted from the sheet, so I put it in. Also included on the sheet were what was called at the time 'Chinese leg movements'. Basically half mooning and / or shuffling while executing combination punching, kicking, advanced kicking, spinning back kick, etc,  etc.  Also you had to be proficient at all numerical combinations - 'mirror image'- from a left side attack starting at Brown belt rank to beyond. Not on the sheet but required during testing were multi-man attacks, wrestling and of course sparring.

Hope this gives you some insight and an accurate look at the true history of your art! :)   Shihan Joe











« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »

Sigung Ray

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Re: 500 Techniques? Overload or What?
« Reply #24 on: May 02, 2003, 08:56:45 PM »
Am so sorry that your teachers did not take the time to learn all the (materials) about kajukenbo.

some just need two get a black belt and that all.
The sense was send in the air, that what some can smell  
(The real thing is as big as a one inch magic marker dot) some has only a pencil dot.....
Some can not or will not even smell it.

Sijo Emerado travel too see all by him self, and after we finish,  He standing stated, (this is what we created long time ago) and was not the videos from Prof G.F. wish is the GM Alejiu R Materials and is the Sijo Creations.
it do not take a life time to learn all in kajukenbo,
Sijo is an Example.

all that was and it's created come from the creators Mind(Sijo)s
Any so call substyle or sub system in wish kajukenbo is the base of the Matter, is Kajukenbo you can change and twist the technique around and is still Kajukenbo!!!

System is not a Style, Kajukenbo Sytem is a combination Sytem, not a style.  A styles is a development of One man
Kajukenbo Sytem is develop by  5 Mans (TQ).
the word (IS) is because we have some creator still alive (TQ).  

for some that have not seen lots of tech... in a system, is because he or she is in a style. That what make Kajukenbo diffrent, a Practitioner after learning all in a style need too go out and look for more in other styles :-[
IN Kajukenbo we do not need two go anywere we have it all at Home :P (TQ) with all your respect I rest my case.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »

Sigung Ray

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Re: 500 Techniques? Overload or What?
« Reply #25 on: May 04, 2003, 08:34:49 PM »
Hi Prof Scott

TQ for your part, I have been trying too let some know that there is more in Kajukenbo that most do not Know and because lots of practitioners did not finish the training they spread kajukenbo using only what they learn, but in reallity there is a lot more,

if some one think that after learning 36 techniques are already set too manage the streets

(((!!!boy are they wrong!!!))
with 36 tech I got my yellow belt, in the late 70...

Prof Scott if you count your tech... there are more than 270 thats one group.

JUST LIKE I SED!!! If you include the 5 groups of the kajukenbo system. you will have over 1300 techniques. ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »

Offline D-Man

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Re: 500 Techniques? Overload or What?
« Reply #26 on: May 05, 2003, 08:34:27 AM »
I've got a question for yall, does the number of techniques double when you consider reverse sides?

It don't really matter, just a funny thought to me.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »

Sigung Ray

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Re: 500 Techniques? Overload or What?
« Reply #27 on: May 05, 2003, 09:40:45 AM »
Prof Scott
You are right!!!

It take 5 too 8 years for some students two semi master the techniques, less than that will be giving away the rank.... remember that kajukenbo is like a University, Were two get a degree is by most 4 years minimum.  A second or a third degree is a Sifu position wish any one that can carry this rank MOST know how the  hole it...., my kajukenbo System is the Old Emerados Method wish Sijo him self Promoted me to a Master level. if a teacher holding this rank can only teach kajukenbo in a limited level, then any one that has 40 or 60 techniques can open a school and teach. then after he has teach all the techniques he has, his students will have too look for some other school two learn more. I call theses students !!with there respect!!
(the missing link of the new era) The more techniques a teacher has the more He can tech, students will have Material for them and his students for a life time.
Sijo Emperado told me in a seminar, (I have never stop Creating, My students stop teaching, because they stop learning, they can call it anyway they like, but is still KaJuKenBo).

love you all Sigung Ray NJKA.

Hi D-Man
I teach a student with only one leg that was in a weel chair, two practice the techniques the reverse site, He never went back too the weel chair. he is the first one too enter the Federal Correction with one leg and go thru the training like a normal cadet. how he is a G-11

Sigung Ray.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »

Karazenpo

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Re: 500 Techniques? Overload or What?
« Reply #28 on: May 05, 2003, 10:21:35 AM »
  Hello Sigung Ray, Great discussion. This has been a controversial topic for many years with two schools of thought. Respectfully, I would like to clarify my position a little better. Do I think the 36 techniques you had mentioned are enough? Yes, I do, but please let me expound on that. Let's take the arbitrary number 36. If those 36 techniques are well thought out, balanced and varied and contain all the principles and concepts of a particular system, and you fully assimiliate (I hate using the term 'master', it's like saying you have them down 100 percent all the time, anywhere, anyplace, being human that is not possible), okay, back on track, you fully assimilate those techniques, and if you are creative and immaginative then you will have hundreds but they were all spawned from those 36 well balanced techniques. A thorough understanding of the basics to borrow from, goes without saying, is also essential.  So, I'm not against teaching more, I do it myself, however, I feel systems are actually based on a 'limited' number of techniques as I illustrated above.
   Next example, about how well one can fight or defend oneself with only 36 techniques. Some of the 'toughest' street fighters in my area growing up were boxers. I graduated in 1970, martial arts wasn't as popular in my area at that time. Boxing was the thing.
   Let's breakdown what these guys work off. They have a jab, a straight punch, hooks or crosses, an overhand right and 'short digs' (in-close body punches) combined with some shuffling, ducking, rolling, bobbing & weaving and slipping. That should about do it. I would say a very limited arsenal from our standards. Pretty much like a limited segment of our closed fist basics with some footwork. Agreed? But once digested and assimilated by the boxer he/she becomes a force to be reckoned with even against an armed attacker. We all know real examples of such situations. The boxer takes this information and incorporates it into his strengths and produces his own personal fighting style from it and he/she does this in a very reasonable amount of time with the main true ingredient being 'heart'. Look at 'kickboxers' who are soley into kickboxing and not traditional martial arts. They can be some of the 'baddest' people on the planet as far as duking it out with. Some may cite an example of the story of Sijo soundly defeating Professional boxing champion Marino Tiwanik during those very early years at the inception of Kajukenbo. If this story is factual remember, back then Sijo would have drew his knowledge from a limited system of techniques because, essentially, that's all there was then.  It would acknowledge Kajukenbo's superiority by all means with both fighters drawing from a limited pool of knowledge. Just my viewpoints on this controversial topic.  :)    Respectfully, Shihan Joe
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:05 PM by -1 »

Karazenpo

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Re: 500 Techniques? Overload or What?
« Reply #29 on: May 05, 2003, 05:22:52 PM »
Aloha Professor Scott, as always, well said Professor! :)
I was thinking about the posts tonight when I was teaching and thought maybe I should have used the word 'core' techniques to describe what I meant and how a limited number of core techniques can turn over 100+ variations. Like you Professor, I think I would have difficulty remembering 'hundreds' of specific techniques in a specfic order. I use as a base of 50 numerical combinations learned both from the right and left side as a core. I also have 26 alphabet techniques, not the original Kajukenbo ones, I picked these from my years of study. I used to teach the alphabet by letter,  but now I just pick and choose. I also have the usual array of club, knife, gun, etc., techniques and ofcourse Jui Jitsu defenses against grabs and holds. I stay faithful with the numerical combinations as a standard in my curriculum along with a core of punch techniques, weapon defenses and jui jitsu, but I pick and choose the others according to my personal likes and dislikes based on my experiences. When I went up for my 6th dan under the late Professor Nick Cerio, besides a physical test he had me put down everything I knew & taught in an organized binder with a complete breakdown of each individual technique (except forms) along with concepts and theories to be submitted two weeks before the test. This was in 1992, I update and use this manual 'till this day. One of the best things I ever did for teaching and I would have never done it if he didn't make me. It was a real pain, back then I used a typewriter! :-/  So again, Professor, I can see what you mean by we're both right on this topic and I thank you  for your professional input on this controversial subject. What I love about this forum is that we all make each other 'think'! and that alone will make it a success.  ;)   Respectfully, Shihan Joe

PS: Professor, I kind of thought there was more to that 'Boxing/Kajukenbo' story than is written, that's why I put in, 'if it's factual'.......to give me a way out, just in case, LOL,  ;D
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:05 PM by -1 »