500 Techniques? Overload or What?

[Karazenpo]

To D-Man, Nah, I consider the mirror image side as the same technique so it counts as one.  

[Sigung Ray]

Hi Prof:Scott and Shihan Joe

In my first years in kajukenbo in the late 70. My Instructor Prof: Ortega from PR is a man with a very strong concept of kajukenbo in that time (IKA). He will start with 25 techniques and 3 forms for a yellow belt.
and for 5 month too a year two grow too 37 tech.. to get Orange belt. and so on, by the time we were too be promoted two a student black belt the knowledge was range from 180 too 235 techniques, this was too be executed in front of all staff members and recorded in video tape. including a 4 man fighting (street fighting Sytle) in the same test on the same day. We were never teach that the kajukenbo system was control to be a limited of techniques, it was kajukenbo techniques and we need it too learn it for the test. point!!! yes it most sound agonizing but that is Kajukenbo in PR. Too assimilate a technique was not a choice, we had too really do the tech.. the right way or nothing. the philosophy (history) was part of the test, telling everthing we knew. this was the second part of the test for every rank too follow. the greatest part of the philosophy was that I did not know that the founders in that time were alive!! it was teach to us that theses mens were the ones for the foundation in Kajukenbo and we all agree that the founders were dead?? Two my suprise they were not!!! there was no contact with any other kajukenbo system or style in the Island of PR in the 70. Us as students. My teachers  Teacher were to come ones in a year two check and too promote some students. now you can understand that for me kajukenbo is one big arsenal of techniques. You know one of my students ask me, when are we going too finish learning all the Kajukenbo techniques, I told him, We never do!! am still learning from my teacher... I have seen my teacher from his 30 up too his late 50 birthdays, and he still has more too teach  me I think this is great. it is my opinion that the 5 group of Kajukenbo shoud be teach too all kajukenbo students in order of ranks, no matter what subway.. for me kajukenbo is a way of life. that why it take a life time
love too all Sigung Ray NJKA  

[Karazenpo]

Aloha Sigung Ray, I truly appreciate your expertise and insight on this subject. You are so right when you say to study Kajukenbo is to study for a lifetime. Even though I started training in '73 every so often I find something 'new' in a form I've been practicing for decades or a different 'spin' on a technique I had before or being exposed to different but valid viewpoints as found on this forum. It's a never ending conquest in trying to get it right!      Respectfully, Shihan Joe

[sleddog]

Kajukenbo was originally a few punch defenses, grab arts, some boxing, stick work and self defense techniques combined with an awful lot of "street testing". It eventually grew into something larger, but not that much larger.

I would challenge anyone who actually thinks that 500 techniques can be effectively remembered and regurgitated by anyone except perhaps a memory expert is seriously lacking a realistic view point.

The other question would be, why does it matter? What can knowing this many techniques have to do with being an effective practitioner? Principles have always been more important than techniques. If someone doesn't know the principle, the quantity of technique is pointless because they will never get any closer to actually understanding what they are doing.

If you need 500 techniques, write them down and put them in a book. That way you won't have to worry about remembering them, just where you left the book.

[Karazenpo]

  Yes, Professor, that is the exact point I have been trying to make. Every system should have a 'core' of limited techniques, however, within this core are all the principles and concepts of that system. The techniques are merely a vehicle to 'drive home' those fighting principles and concepts. From these limited number of techniques and a thorough understanding of the basics to borrow from, you will be able to create 100's.
   Professor Pesare has 21 combinations in his Karazenpo system inspired by the "Original Method". It doesn't mean that all he has is 21 or all is practiced is just  21, but 21 is the core or vehicle to transport the principles and concepts to each individual student. This is also where Professor Cerio received his foundation and look how far he took it. The first class I ever took from Grandmaster Pesare was a group class in the 70's and I still remember him saying, "There are 21 combinations in the Kempo system." "If you are creative and imaginative you will have hundreds." "If you are uncreative and unimaginative, you will always have just 21." I think that says it all. Professor, I too recall a similiar biblical saying, 'Give a man a fish and you feed him for one day.' Teach a man to fish and you feed him for a lifetime.'
    An exercise we do that I think clearly backs up what Professor Scott is stating is what we call 'pickle in the middle.' You have the tori stand in the middle with an uke in front and one behind. They may come in any way they want, left hand, right hand, kick, grab, weapon, etc., and you have to reflexively formulate your kempo as these attacks occur. Sometimes I signal the next attack while the previous one is still being defended against. To me, this is Kempo/Kajukenbo!
   To make one other thing clear, as you can see from my previous posts I do have a broader base of techniques than the 21 but what I am talking about, whether its 21, 36 or 50, they are your core and I can't see having 100+ techniques as a core. I believe its overload and redundancy. A broader range may help tailor the system better to fit each individual student (the menu concept) but 500 to over 1000, I just can't see.
                                      

 Aloha, Shihan Joe

                                  


























































































































                                                

[Sigung Ray NJKA]

Hi is very good two read from you....

has any of you have a Book that was written by Sijo Emperado and his Brother Joe were all the kajukenbo techniques are in the Book,   Is call the: (kajukenbo Black Book) there are more techniques written in this book wish I remember seen this book in my Prof hands. this in the late 70, very few has the book, for some that had it he or she would not understand it and came up with there own techniques.
Accourding with Sigung Morlino NJ. I belive he told me that some Prof:  had this book too.
This Book was not too be seen by any one due that it was like a scrash book from the begining in the development of kajukenbo, but then some how they copy it and hand them out too some few?..
this book has more than 100 techniques Original Old kajukenbo Method.
I can only speak for my own experience in turns of techniques, fighting and doing a technique is the same thing, if you can not do a technique while you are fighting then is not martial arts, any one can kick and punch that I see on 90% in all karate competition. two stand in front of some one and formulate a tech too your oponent that take lots of practice and than you will look like a martial artist.   In a close advance Black Belt class in PR By Professor Jaime Basques of Hawaii, he told me two stand and do a technique he than told a student to attak me. it came two his suprise that I did not stand in any fighting possition and he ask me who do you think you are (Sijo)??$#!%#$&.....  I told him I do not have a fighting possition am always in a fighting possition as we speak.. he told me you are a real kajukenbo man.

thats what techniques do for you!!