Author Topic: Emperado Method vs. Original Method...  (Read 19369 times)

Tim Vargas

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Emperado Method vs. Original Method...
« on: November 20, 2010, 01:36:49 PM »
There seems to be some confusion that I hope can be addressed here on this forum that would clear up alot of misunderstandings, mainly, does "Emperados Method" ONLY relate to the Original branch while excluding all the other branches?   When did the *words* "methods" appear, and who was the first to use them?  Where is the *DOCUMENTATION* (notorized, dated, signed) of the earliest known use of the words "method" (i.e. Emperado, Gaylord, Ramos, etc.) that we see today?

According to Sijo,  "if its Kajukenbo, its Emperado Method".  That statement speaks volumes.


It is my opinion that based on history and the statements from Sijo that: The "Emperado Method" does not only belong to the "Original Method" group but ALL authorized branches of Kajukenbo!


Tim

Offline Patrick Campbell

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Re: Emperado Method vs. Original Method...
« Reply #1 on: November 20, 2010, 01:56:35 PM »


According to Sijo,  "if its Kajukenbo, its Emperado Method".  That statement speaks volumes.


It is my opinion that based on history and the statements from Sijo that: The "Emperado Method" does not only belong to the "Original Method" group but ALL authorized branches of Kajukenbo!


Tim

Thanks for the post. I agree with this point. However, there are many who apparently don't. I am going to teach what I teach and I dare anyone to tell me I am not KAJUKENBO. It is what it is. I'll keep doing what I am doing.

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Offline onephatboydave

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Re: Emperado Method vs. Original Method...
« Reply #2 on: November 20, 2010, 02:30:54 PM »
I think they are both one in the same. However when one makes changes to the original method or adds something to it which is not of the original method then you have something different. It becomes its own method with the root being original method.

Question, do you believe you are doing the original method of Kajukenbo that was created in the begining?

Whatever the case every method, lineage all comes back to the root which was SIJO. If you cant trace it back to the creator of Kajukenbo then it aint Kajukenbo.




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Tim Vargas

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Re: Emperado Method vs. Original Method...
« Reply #3 on: November 20, 2010, 02:55:04 PM »


Question, do you believe you are doing the original method of Kajukenbo that was created in the begining?

Whatever the case every method, lineage all comes back to the root which was SIJO. If you cant trace it back to the creator of Kajukenbo then it aint Kajukenbo.

WADR  

I believe I am doing the Emperado Method, which for me happens to entail influence from my instructors, GGM Gaylord and GM Vargas.  When GGM Gaylord brought Kajukenbo to the mainland it was as he learned it from his instructors, *pre-Chuan Fa*, and taught GM Vargas the same, who was one of the Chiefs first blackbelts.  It was only later that the additions (Chuan Fa) were added as per Sijo's wish for all Kajukenbo, but even with the addition, the hardhitting/heavy kenpo influence remains.

I agree with you, THAT "every method, lineage" comes back to Sijo "Emperado Method", which is if you cant trace it back to the creator, then its something else...

As per Sijo's words:  " if its Kajukenbo, its Emperado Method"!
Tim
« Last Edit: November 20, 2010, 11:37:20 PM by Tim Vargas »

Offline Ron Baker

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Re: Emperado Method vs. Original Method...
« Reply #4 on: November 20, 2010, 03:43:20 PM »
While I have the akamai kine guys in the room ...  ;) let me ask this question:

Since Sijo was a Kenpo man, can the Jiu Jitsu/Judo of Kajukenbo be traced directly back to him?
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Offline onephatboydave

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Re: Emperado Method vs. Original Method...
« Reply #5 on: November 20, 2010, 04:06:25 PM »
Tim,

I think where saying the same thing I think the Original Method title was only used as a way to differentiate itself from the other branches such as Chuan Fa, Wo Hop Kuen Do, and Tum Pai. Once SIJO implamented these different branches into the system they fell under the umbrella of Emperado's Method which is Kajukenbo.

From what I was thought these are the branches of Kajukenbo others are methods of Kajukenbo with the Original Method ie Emperado's Method being the root.

I don't think GGM Gaylord or GGM Ahgung Tony Ramos ever said they created Kajukenbo In fact I was at the filming of Fight Quest and remember GGM Gaylord doing in intro speech where he deticated the show to the Founder of Kajukenbo SIJO Emperado. Sad that it was cut out of the show.  I know you did not say they created Kajukenbo but I thought I would just put that out there.

I think Method is just a way of saying doing the same thing, just different.

I hope this makes sense....
 
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Offline onephatboydave

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Re: Emperado Method vs. Original Method...
« Reply #6 on: November 20, 2010, 04:16:47 PM »
While I have the akamai kine guys in the room ...  ;) let me ask this question:

Since Sijo was a Kenpo man, can the Jiu Jitsu/Judo of Kajukenbo be traced directly back to him?
I would say Yes as to what he implemented into Kajukenbo from what he was taught. Then you would have to go back to his lineage of Jiu Jitsu/Judo.

 
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Tim Vargas

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Re: Emperado Method vs. Original Method...
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2010, 05:02:13 PM »
Tim,

I think where saying the same thing I think the Original Method title was only used as a way to differentiate itself from the other branches such as Chuan Fa, Wo Hop Kuen Do, and Tum Pai. Once SIJO implamented these different branches into the system they fell under the umbrella of Emperado's Method which is Kajukenbo.

From what I was thought these are the branches of Kajukenbo others are methods of Kajukenbo with the Original Method ie Emperado's Method being the root.

I don't think GGM Gaylord or GGM Ahgung Tony Ramos ever said they created Kajukenbo In fact I was at the filming of Fight Quest and remember GGM Gaylord doing in intro speech where he deticated the show to the Founder of Kajukenbo SIJO Emperado. Sad that it was cut out of the show.  I know you did not say they created Kajukenbo but I thought I would just put that out there.

I think Method is just a way of saying doing the same thing, just different.

I hope this makes sense....
 

Thanks David, I too see where your coming from and can agree to a certain point. Your first paragraph I agree with, but then in the second paragraph you negate it by using "Original Method ie Emperado's Method being the root".  It is my opinion that the Emperado's Method is the Root, which the Original Method, Tum pai, Chuan Fa, and WHKD are part equally.  You see there is a root, but its not in any one BRANCH.

I dont think GGM Gaylord said he created Kajukenbo either, but was making that clear to GM Reyes who seemed to be trying to put GGMG on a creators level, by stating he needed no co-founders, etc.

As to your understanding of Method, I too have the same understanding , and makes perfect sense.

Offline onephatboydave

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Re: Emperado Method vs. Original Method...
« Reply #8 on: November 20, 2010, 06:58:32 PM »
Tim,

So let me try one last time. When Kajukenbo was founded it was made up of the five original martial arts. At that time there was no branch of Wo Hop Kuen Do not to sure on the Tum Pai. These arts were developed later and then added to the system. That's why I say if we go back to the root it would just be plain ol Kajukenbo made up of the five original arts.... Hence Original Method because this was the begining.

Question, does Wo Hop Kuen Do do Palama sets do they do concentrations or basic and advance techniques?

Each art is different in its own way yet put together it is a deadly combination. I that's what attracted us who do Kaju.

Either way the root is the root SIJO! Yes the co founders had their part in developing the art but SIJO is the one who brought it to the forefront....

I think you took what GM Reyes said out of context. I took it as GGM Gaylord created his own version of Kajukenbo meaning his method or way of doing Kaju. 

I think at the present time we have no leadership in Kajukenbo it seems people are running amuck and the Elders are sitting back letting it happen. If SIJO were here what would he say?

Keep training thats all we can do.....

On a side note the last time I punched a guy it was just good ol Kajukenbo...LOL
 



   
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Offline Jason Goldsmith

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Re: Emperado Method vs. Original Method...
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2010, 07:04:01 PM »


Question, does Wo Hop Kuen Do do Palama sets do they do concentrations or basic and advance techniques?



WHKD does Palama 1-4 as one form, and has basic and advanced techniques presented as individual techniques and as combos/counters (punch counters, kick combos, etc).
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Offline Mitch Powell

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Re: Emperado Method vs. Original Method...
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2010, 07:39:22 PM »
Greetings,

I've always felt the original method was the hard-line Kajukenbo that was done by Sijo in Hawaii prior to the additions of the ch'uan fa, tum pai, etc. This is where things get tricky. GGM Aleju Reyes had the responsibility of writing down how Sijo wanted the techniques and forms to go. When GGM Reyes left Hawaii and came to California he taught Kajukenbo just as it was taught to him by Sijo. GGM Reyes' son, GM Reyes, has done the same. To me, the Reyes family has the "original method" of Kajukenbo. There may be other schools out there other than the Reyes lineage who can trace their training directly back to Sijo and have kept the knowledge just as Sijo taught it during the 1950s, but I'm not aware of who that might be. Perhaps we can get some feedback from others.

The "original method" knowledge would include:

14 Pinians/Palama Sets
21 punch arts (Advance)
15 grab arts (Basic)
15 knife defense
13 club defense
8 two-man defense
6 three-man defense
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Offline Ron Baker

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Re: Emperado Method vs. Original Method...
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2010, 08:46:18 PM »
Greetings,

I've always felt the original method was the hard-line Kajukenbo that was done by Sijo in Hawaii prior to the additions of the ch'uan fa, tum pai, etc. This is where things get tricky. GGM Aleju Reyes had the responsibility of writing down how Sijo wanted the techniques and forms to go. When GGM Reyes left Hawaii and came to California he taught Kajukenbo just as it was taught to him by Sijo. GGM Reyes' son, GM Reyes, has done the same. To me, the Reyes family has the "original method" of Kajukenbo. There may be other schools out there other than the Reyes lineage who can trace their training directly back to Sijo and have kept the knowledge just as Sijo taught it during the 1950s, but I'm not aware of who that might be. Perhaps we can get some feedback from others.

The "original method" knowledge would include:

14 Pinians/Palama Sets
21 punch arts (Advance)
15 grab arts (Basic)
15 knife defense
13 club defense
8 two-man defense
6 three-man defense
26 Alphabets    


Would it be fair to assume that the rest of the "original" students who trained directly under Sijo--who did not form their own Methods--also maintained the Original Hard Style?  
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Offline Mitch Powell

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Re: Emperado Method vs. Original Method...
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2010, 11:47:44 AM »
Backfist,

I would say yes if they kept the knowledge the same as Sijo taught it. Remember, we are talking about the original hard-line kenpo/karate version of Kajukenbo. So, 1950s until about what 1961? Or before the ch'uan fa was added. Something to think about though is there were some folks who trained from Sijo who left before they learned all the knowledge of the hard-line method. Although they taught what was "original" maybe they didn't have all that much to teach. If they added to the original then you get half/half.

I think the big question is who besides the Reyes line came directly from Sijo in the 1950s that did not change or add to the knowledge that Sijo taught?
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Offline Ron Baker

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Re: Emperado Method vs. Original Method...
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2010, 12:08:58 PM »
GM Mitch:

I wanna say, maybe, Bro. Abe Kamahoahoa (even though he came from Chow and joined Sijo later).  Or maybe Mr. Wedemeyer and SGM Kaanana?

Edit: I'm just thinking that there were plenty Kajukenbo ohana who did not leave Hawaii and who maintained original Kaju and its teachings. 
« Last Edit: November 21, 2010, 01:30:42 PM by backfist »
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Tim Vargas

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Re: Emperado Method vs. Original Method...
« Reply #14 on: November 21, 2010, 12:12:02 PM »
Backfist,

I would say yes if they kept the knowledge the same as Sijo taught it. Remember, we are talking about the original hard-line kenpo/karate version of Kajukenbo. So, 1950s until about what 1961? Or before the ch'uan fa was added. Something to think about though is there were some folks who trained from Sijo who left before they learned all the knowledge of the hard-line method. Although they taught what was "original" maybe they didn't have all that much to teach. If they added to the original then you get half/half.

I think the big question is who besides the Reyes line came directly from Sijo in the 1950s that did not change or add to the knowledge that Sijo taught?

GM Powell,

Please, give us some hard dates as from where the *Original Method* comprises, because alot of dates are being thrown out there and is important in order to get a clear picture of the growth of Kajukenbo.  

As you stated in a previous post, KAJUKENBO was put together from 1947-1949, so by 1950 there was a definate SYSTEM, which appears to be *different* than what you say comprises the *original method* of today.  

Thanks.

Tim