Author Topic: Emperado Method vs. Original Method...  (Read 19370 times)

Offline David V. Amiccuci

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Re: Emperado Method vs. Original Method...
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2010, 01:08:15 PM »
When a new person walks through our Dojo Door in Fairfield Calif. and says that they want to learn Kajukenbo as it was from its inception. I direct them to GM Reye's Dojo. Knowing that is where you go.  ;)
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: Emperado Method vs. Original Method...
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2010, 01:13:41 PM »
Very Interesting discussion...sometimes a thread becomes a history lesson...GT
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Offline Mitch Powell

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Re: Emperado Method vs. Original Method...
« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2010, 10:09:43 PM »
Kajukenbo development:

1947-49, Emperado, Holck, Ordonez, Choo and Chang combined knowledge of kenpo-karate, jujitsu, judo and boxing (Chinese and American) where they began developing the concepts of Kajukenbo--blending the arts.

1950, Sijo moves his group of students to Palama where he joins Woodrow McCandless' group. Sijo becomes chief instructor with his brother Joe Emperado and McCandless assisting.

1950-60/61, creation of the original method knowledge:

14 forms
21 punch
15 grab
15 knife
13 club
8 two-man
6 three-man
26 Alphabets

plus the fundamentals, protocals, etc.

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Tim Vargas

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Re: Emperado Method vs. Original Method...
« Reply #18 on: November 22, 2010, 01:29:19 AM »
Kajukenbo development:

1947-49, Emperado, Holck, Ordonez, Choo and Chang combined knowledge of kenpo-karate, jujitsu, judo and boxing (Chinese and American) where they began developing the concepts of Kajukenbo--blending the arts.

1950, Sijo moves his group of students to Palama where he joins Woodrow McCandless' group. Sijo becomes chief instructor with his brother Joe Emperado and McCandless assisting.

1950-60/61, creation of the original method knowledge:

14 forms
21 punch
15 grab
15 knife
13 club
8 two-man
6 three-man
26 Alphabets

plus the fundamentals, protocals, etc.



Thanks.

So would the years from 1947-1949 be called *Emperado Method*, since you say the *original method* developed from 1950-1960/61?  Or perhaps the words are not used correctly, since Original denotes an *origin*, etc. which would correctly be from 1947-1949.  I think that is were some confusion is, when thinking of how history is to be written, it should be well thought out ahead of time if possible, but I do realize that alot of what  we hear is what one would call retroactive, and not what was said in the beginning. 

In the end, Kajukenbo is Kajukenbo, with no one branch or method being over another, but equal.  And in knowing that, then and only then, can true unity exist.

Thanks for your opinions.

Tim

Offline Wado

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Re: Emperado Method vs. Original Method...
« Reply #19 on: November 22, 2010, 02:17:28 AM »
IMHO, Original Method denotes how Kajukenbo was practiced under Sijo around 1960.

Emperado Method is the continuation of the Original Method under Sijo to present day.

Of course, all Kajukenbo comes under Sijo... I'm not meaning to say any differently.
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Offline Dean Goldade

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Re: Emperado Method vs. Original Method...
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2010, 08:55:30 AM »
I agree with preserving the original knowledge, and appreciate those who carry on that quest.. But to tell us all that we need to practice the art as it was done in the 60's is like telling me to take a black powder rifle to the sandbox over an M16 / M4... They both will take you out, but one is probably a better, and more efficient way of doing the same job.. Even the vets I have talked about from the Vietnam era.. ( soldiers, not those who just happened to be alive then ) often traded or threw away their M16 piece of poop era jamming rifle for the AK-47 they took off the body of the soldier they just sent to Val Halla.

This debate will go on forever. If you have true Kaju roots, you are Kaju.. If you modify the original than you are doing what the founding fathers did, so you are Kaju... Don't worry about what everybody else thinks about what you do... Just do the right thing and teach your people to be tough and maintain our hardcore heritage.. The tech's are only a building block... Old or new... The question to be asked is... At the end of the day can you fight.... ( and can you make good fighters out of your students )...

I am not saying to not appreciate, and teach the core art of your method, but it ain't 1960 anymore boys and girls..... I am going to teach what works... Old and New..

Have a great day..

Dean.
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Offline Wado

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Re: Emperado Method vs. Original Method...
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2010, 09:48:54 AM »
I feel one of the points of difference is everyone can have have different ideas of how an art can stay the same but at the same time be constantly changing. This would be a contradiction to many, but not to me. I saw this in Goju in just a decade how much changed, yet the forms and fundamentals were said to never change.

My first karate instructor explained this to me some twenty plus years after I had last seen him. He used the iceberg analogy. 10% of an iceberg is above water and visible, 90% is hidden under the water line. The visible represented what you see as the core of the martial art (pinans/forms, fundamentals, grab arts, punch counters, etc.). The other 90% is supplemental training (sparring, real world experience, cross-training, conditioning, etc.)

The secret to any martial art is in the supplemental training. He said that at black belt levels, 90% of your training should be in supplemental training and 10% in the core. At green belt levels, it was about 50%/50%. And at white belt it was reversed with 90% of the training in the core and 10% training in supplemental. Most Kaju schools seem to start off at 50%/50% it seems, with conditioning, sparring and such coming earlier. But that is just the way we do things.

So when using a term like Original method, IMHO, this does not mean that things cannot change or did not change. It represents a certain set of core fundamentals (the visible part of Kajukenbo). The supplemental training (hidden part of Kajukenbo) can change as needed. 

Schools within Kajukenbo would have their own variants of core fundamentals, tracing their roots back to the Original method. The point is that all schools have a set of core fundamentals.

1960 is not a date written in stone, I have no idea... however, CHA 3 Kenpo Karate formed before 1960 and it is a brother to Kajukenbo, not a branch... so that date made sense to me as about right. Sijo is still the father.

This is just in my opinion and experience.

W. Yamauchi
Mateo Kajukenbo
Seattle, Washington

Offline Patrick Campbell

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Re: Emperado Method vs. Original Method...
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2010, 10:38:04 AM »
.

This debate will go on forever. If you have true Kaju roots, you are Kaju.. If you modify the original than you are doing what the founding fathers did, so you are Kaju... Don't worry about what everybody else thinks about what you do... Just do the right thing and teach your people to be tough and maintain our hardcore heritage.. The tech's are only a building block... Old or new... The question to be asked is... At the end of the day can you fight.... ( and can you make good fighters out of your students )...

I

Well put sir. Very well put.

Pat
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Offline Mitch Powell

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Re: Emperado Method vs. Original Method...
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2010, 11:43:36 AM »
We have gone way beyond anyone being able to tell us what piece/method etc. of Kajukenbo to practice. I like the original hard-line method because it teaches you how to strike really hard and where to strike. It also combines the judo and jujitsu takedowns. As a cop, that worked very well for me. I have enjoyed teaching it to my two sons as well and it seems to have worked well for them as far as developing their ability to fight back.

As I age, I enjoy the ch'uan fa movements more. I am not as strong as I once was or as fast but I have a better understanding of how to block, strike, kick, and transition from movement to movement as well as control someone. So, I enjoy the flowing movements more and have evolved, but I would not understand the things the way I do if I didn't learn the hard-line method first.

GM Vince Black told me years ago that one's age should dictact their practice. When you are 20, then 80% of what you do should be hard and 20% soft. When you are 30, then 70% of what you do should be hard and 30% soft. At my age (50) my training is at the 50/50 mark. as you get older the softer practices overcome the harder practice.

I too believe as Wado stated, the original method is the Kajukenbo Sijo taught in Hawaii up to about 1960 and everything else is Emperado method since it flowed my Sijo Emperado's teaching.   
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Tim Vargas

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Re: Emperado Method vs. Original Method...
« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2010, 01:15:04 PM »
Interesting.  From what I gather from GM Powell is that *Emperado Method* and *Original Method* are two different animals, which is different than what some say, like GM Reyes, and David Garcia.  SO, are those two indications the SAME or different? 

Again, since Kajukenbo's *origin* is from 1947-1949, THAT is what I call Original, because that is the START, what then continues is the natural evolution of our great art.  As far as I can tell by documentation, the TERM *Original Method* was not used until well after the *Chuan Fa * was created.  Like I said, it was a retroactive term that we use today, although incorrectly, to signifiy those who did not want to move into the Chuan Fa evolution.  No problem with that, BUT lets call it what it really IS.

"if its Kajukenbo, its Emperado Method" Sijo A.D. Emperado.  So, from 1947 to the present ITS Emperado Method, regardless of Branch!


Tim

Offline Mitch Powell

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Re: Emperado Method vs. Original Method...
« Reply #25 on: November 22, 2010, 04:38:54 PM »
Tim,

That was my understanding until I received some information from one of my elders who saw the post. I'm rethinking my understanding on this topic. Here's the deal. Sijo learned kenpo-karate from Prof. Chow. When Sijo began teaching that's what he taught-- kenpo-karate. Although Sijo and the other four creators spent two years training together, comparing knowledge, and developing techniques, when Sijo began teaching at Palama he still called what he taught kenpo-karate. I've heard that system called the original method and perhaps it should be.

As Sijo continued to develop Kajukenbo, adding forms, techniuques, drills, etc. he developed his own method of self defense which is the "Emperado" method. The black belts that left Hawaii and the ones that stayed there and taught were all teaching Emperado Method.

Over the years the original method became synonymous with Emperado methods and the Emperado method became Kajukenbo as a whole. All of what we do is Kajukenbo, just like gojo ryu, shotokan, wado ryu, etc. are versions of Karate.
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Tim Vargas

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Re: Emperado Method vs. Original Method...
« Reply #26 on: November 22, 2010, 05:41:16 PM »
GM Powell,

Thank you so much for your time and opinions.  I agree and SEE how others want us to think, or to re-think what we have always known or what we feel, unfortunately HISTORY has been written, and there as many stories as inidividuals in Kajukenbo.   The whole reason for my original post is to show, that Kajukenbo was established (origin) in 1947 and has CONTINUALLY evolved even to this day, and will continue to do so.  EVERYONE of us who have studied our great art can *seize* any particular part of history to make it our own or to say "thats what I teach", etc., which is great, BUT to call something *original* it better start from day one, otherwise its other, also when speaking of protocol, that is only so good as those who study under that particular person who has seized that time frame.  Make sense?

Sijos words have more authority than our thoughts, when he said: "if its Kajukenbo, its Emperado Method"!

The Kajukenbo taught from the *origin/beginning* is NOT the exact same as any BRANCH of Kajukenbo, whether it be what is called Original Method, Tumpai, Chuan Fa, WHKD, etc., because we can SEE the evolution.  Its awesome to see so many variations of our art, even amongst the Branches there are variations. 



Tim

Offline Patrick Campbell

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Re: Emperado Method vs. Original Method...
« Reply #27 on: November 22, 2010, 07:03:05 PM »
 :)
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Offline Danjo

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Re: Emperado Method vs. Original Method...
« Reply #28 on: November 22, 2010, 08:15:07 PM »
Tim, what is driving your passion, or whatever you call it, about this topic? I always understood the Original Method of Kajukenbo to be the Kajukenbo that was developed and practiced before Sijo and Dacascos created the Chuan Fa branch. That was pretty much when Sijo quit developing the original method and moved onto other areas. He intended everyone to convert, but Aleju Reyes got permission to keep going with the Original Method as he already knew it. Also, when Al Dacascos went to show the new Chaun Fa material to others, some of them didn't want to switch from their own versions such as Tony Ramos, and Charles Gaylord. The Original Method was just "Kajukenbo" until the other branches and methods were formed.
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Re: Emperado Method vs. Original Method...
« Reply #29 on: November 22, 2010, 08:46:11 PM »
Tim, what is driving your passion, or whatever you call it, about this topic? I always understood the Original Method of Kajukenbo to be the Kajukenbo that was developed and practiced before Sijo and Dacascos created the Chuan Fa branch. That was pretty much when Sijo quit developing the original method and moved onto other areas. He intended everyone to convert, but Aleju Reyes got permission to keep going with the Original Method as he already knew it. Also, when Al Dacascos went to show the new Chaun Fa material to others, some of them didn't want to switch from their own versions such as Tony Ramos, and Charles Gaylord. The Original Method was just "Kajukenbo" until the other branches and methods were formed.

Hi Dan,

The same that drives you on this forum and others is what drives me: questions and answers.  I only get involved or respond to messages that are important to me, if you dont like the subject I like, then move on and read another post by someone else.  I most certainly do not read every subject or post, some are quite boring while others are not.  So there you go.  There has been alot of posts lately talking about history, and protocol, and if my questions are too hard for someone to answer then all they need to do is not answer or say they dont know, but dont make  it up as you go along, because eventually it will come along and trip you up.  I like facts, you have facts? present them so they can be examined and verified, if you dont its opinion, and thats good too, beacuse what we think IS important, and shoudnt be forced into believeing something contrary to what we believe to be true.  There are many truths, and that truth is in the eye of the beholder. 

Thanks for your interest in what "is driving my passion".

Tim