Author Topic: Emperado Method vs. Original Method...  (Read 19358 times)

Offline Mitch Powell

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Re: Emperado Method vs. Original Method...
« Reply #30 on: November 22, 2010, 09:20:18 PM »
When I have to think, some of the rust comes off and things that didn't mean anything back in the day start to pop out at me. I got my black belt from GM Calvin Shin. He was Ahgung Tony Ramos' first black belt here in northern California in 1964. We had a big sign in the middle of the school that read "Kajukenbo kenpo-karate" on it. My certificates all say Kajukenbo kenpo-karate. It didn't mean anything to me at the time, but I know what it means know.

Even though Kajukenbo had evolved, when Tony Ramos taught it to Cal Shin he still referred to it as the "kenpo-karate" version of Kajukenbo. Ahgung Ramos went on to create his own version of Kajukenbo and added a lot of very cool ch'uan fa and gung fu forms/techniques etc., but when he started teaching he taught Emperado method Kajukenbo--which we now call the kenpo-karate branch. 

We have been talking about Kajukenbo having different stages, but so did some of the methods that evolved from it. What was taught at the beginning of say the Ramos method changed over the years. Which means you could have an "original method" within that branch and then the flavors that evolved from it. That's also why it's "ALL" Kajukenbo.
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Offline Danjo

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Re: Emperado Method vs. Original Method...
« Reply #31 on: November 22, 2010, 09:34:40 PM »
Tim, I wasn't being hostile etc. Just wondering why you kept at this since it didn't seem to be that big of a topic. I get it now. I was careful not to say "what's up you butt?" Etc. Cuz I didn't want it to come off like I was being critical. Thanks for clearing it up. Like I said, I think thr original method was what was taught before the other branches were formed, not merely what was created in the 1940's.
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Offline David V. Amiccuci

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Re: Emperado Method vs. Original Method...
« Reply #32 on: November 22, 2010, 10:53:40 PM »
"Also, when Al Dacascos went to show the new Chaun Fa material to others, some of them didn't want to switch from their own versions such as Tony Ramos, and Charles Gaylord."

Danjo,

Not really sure where your info is comming from on this statement above. Having talked directly to Sifu Bill Owens and Gm Al Dacascos on the subject Sifu Bill said, "Allot of old timers claim Chuan Fa but Ahgung and his people are one of the only ones to accept the Chuan Fa knowledge". This was said in Oakland in the early 90's at a table with Gm Al and Sifu Bill. I don't have the exact quote from GM Dacascos but on the web GM Dacascos stated how Ahgung Tony Ramos is Chuan Fa.

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Offline Danjo

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Re: Emperado Method vs. Original Method...
« Reply #33 on: November 22, 2010, 11:00:49 PM »
Thanks for the clarification. Sometimes my memory is fuzzy with what I was told.
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Offline Mitch Powell

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Re: Emperado Method vs. Original Method...
« Reply #34 on: November 22, 2010, 11:15:23 PM »
When I trained from Ahgung Ramos in the early 70s we did two weeks of kenpo then two weeks of sticks and then two weeks of gung fu (Ch'uan fa). That was how the knowledge was taught. When it came time to demonstrate the gung fu forms or techniques, I remember thinking how amazing Mr. Ramos was. You could tell he really enjoyed that part of the arts--the sticks too, but he was a very good gung fu man.
 
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Offline Danjo

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Re: Emperado Method vs. Original Method...
« Reply #35 on: November 23, 2010, 12:01:50 AM »
So what is it thay distinguished the "Ramos Method" from the Chaun Fa branch that GM Dacascos taught to him?
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Offline David V. Amiccuci

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Re: Emperado Method vs. Original Method...
« Reply #36 on: November 23, 2010, 01:10:44 AM »
Our Chuan Fa isn't exactly the same as that of Gm Al Delacruz and of Gm Dacascos did but the concepts GGM Ramos expounded on they're concepts. 
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Offline GM ALAN M. REYES

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Re: Emperado Method vs. Original Method...
« Reply #37 on: November 23, 2010, 04:19:32 AM »
When a new person walks through our Dojo Door in Fairfield Calif. and says that they want to learn Kajukenbo as it was from its inception. I direct them to GM Reye's Dojo. Knowing that is where you go.  ;)
At its inception maybe, but All are correct in one point or another,maybe wording has to do with it,,when training in Hawaii at the ealiest date,those in the know would refer to The Emperado boys, teaching their form of "Kenpo Karate" this was also refered to as the "original method" learned from Chow, and from Mitose, Emperado's training mirrored Chow in it's intensity, hard lined,hard hitting, with always no pain no gain attitude.

At that point it was the "original method". True, there are no writings of what Emperado taught at that point of Kenpo-Karate, and true he had students that trained and mirrored Chows'/Emperado's training "methods", So the Kenpo-Karate movement was in full swing,,,even GGM Ed Parker a student of Chow and a jr. training brother of Adriano D. Emperado eventually used the format of Chow's Kenpo Karate. And started Ed Parker American Kenpo.

Then within time, of when the Black Belt Societywas training, and with the involvement of Emperado, his "ORIGINAL METHOD EVOLVED" thru the developement of the "EMPERADO METHOD" or what has come to be called "KAJUKENBO, or Emperado's original Knowledge".

At this juncture of Kajukenbo History,Instructors spread Emperado's knowledge throughout Hawaii,the Mainland, and the world.

So anything that has to do with, or history of KAJUKENBO, its from the Emperado Method,,,,as Sijo would say!

And that's were our Reyes Kenpo Karate History starts from "EMPERADO METHOD", Far from the inception or "Kenpo Karate", but very close to it,,

So whatever you train at of your Kajukenbo portion,Emperado Method,Hard style,soft style,Gaylord,Ramos,Chuan Fa,WHKD,Tum pai, a method or Branch,,, train hard, maintain discipline, and be proud of your Kajukenbo Legacy!

I hope this helps
WADR
GMReyes

Even within the confines of the Kajukenbo Cafe,,,John Bishop's had the title description of theoriginal method section as "ORIGINAL METHOD AKA KENPO-KARATE" with 13,000 plus views listed.
  
« Last Edit: November 23, 2010, 04:24:20 AM by GM ALAN M.REYES »
SGM Alan M. Reyes
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FirstGenerationStudent-GGM Sijo Adriano D. Emperado-Palama Settlement Hi(1954)

Offline cirillo

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Re: Emperado Method vs. Original Method...
« Reply #38 on: November 23, 2010, 08:43:24 PM »
The confusion regarding Chuan Fa is pretty broad.  From what I can gather, GM Dacascos called much of what he taught, incorporating Kung Fu into his Kajukenbo, Chuan Fa for a while, until he developed WHKD.  In general, his Chuan Fa was Kung Fu separate from Kajukenbo, but included within the specific training he was giving.  He was asked to communicate what he had learned during the time he had studied Kung Fu to other Kajukenbo groups and often he referred to it as Chuan Fa.  

Where the confusion comes is that Chuan Fa is a very general term, similar to Kenpo, used in many Chinese systems, so there are a number of other Chuan Fa versions that could be independently derived.  Since many people have used the same term for incorporation of Chinese movements into Kajukenbo, it is no longer clear which are derived from the material taught by GM Dacascos and which are independently derived.  In other words, it has all now become part of the mix and a bit lost in history.

I hope the information helps, it is derived from a number of independent sources, so remains my interpretation of everything put together over many years, not necessarily factual.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2010, 08:45:30 PM by cirillo »
Sifu Jeffrey D. Cirillo,  7th Degree Black belt in Wun Hop Kuen Do under GM Al Dacascos and 3rd Degree in FaChuan (Blossom Fist) under Sifu Bill Owens with over 35 years experience in the martial arts.
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Offline Mitch Powell

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Re: Emperado Method vs. Original Method...
« Reply #39 on: November 23, 2010, 11:49:58 PM »
Jeff,

That was a great explanation. When I think of ch'uan fa I think of Al Dela Cruz and Leonard Endrizi. GM Gelinas also has the ch'uan fa knowledge written out if my mind serves me right. The techniques were actually written down. Does Wun Hop Kuen do have different versions like we are discussing here with the original versus Emperado method?

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Tim Vargas

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Re: Emperado Method vs. Original Method...
« Reply #40 on: November 24, 2010, 12:31:34 AM »
When a new person walks through our Dojo Door in Fairfield Calif. and says that they want to learn Kajukenbo as it was from its inception. I direct them to GM Reye's Dojo. Knowing that is where you go.  ;)
At its inception maybe, but All are correct in one point or another,maybe wording has to do with it,,when training in Hawaii at the ealiest date,those in the know would refer to The Emperado boys, teaching their form of "Kenpo Karate" this was also refered to as the "original method" learned from Chow, and from Mitose, Emperado's training mirrored Chow in it's intensity, hard lined,hard hitting, with always no pain no gain attitude.

At that point it was the "original method". True, there are no writings of what Emperado taught at that point of Kenpo-Karate, and true he had students that trained and mirrored Chows'/Emperado's training "methods", So the Kenpo-Karate movement was in full swing,,,even GGM Ed Parker a student of Chow and a jr. training brother of Adriano D. Emperado eventually used the format of Chow's Kenpo Karate. And started Ed Parker American Kenpo.

Then within time, of when the Black Belt Societywas training, and with the involvement of Emperado, his "ORIGINAL METHOD EVOLVED" thru the developement of the "EMPERADO METHOD" or what has come to be called "KAJUKENBO, or Emperado's original Knowledge".

At this juncture of Kajukenbo History,Instructors spread Emperado's knowledge throughout Hawaii,the Mainland, and the world.

So anything that has to do with, or history of KAJUKENBO, its from the Emperado Method,,,,as Sijo would say!

And that's were our Reyes Kenpo Karate History starts from "EMPERADO METHOD", Far from the inception or "Kenpo Karate", but very close to it,,

So whatever you train at of your Kajukenbo portion,Emperado Method,Hard style,soft style,Gaylord,Ramos,Chuan Fa,WHKD,Tum pai, a method or Branch,,, train hard, maintain discipline, and be proud of your Kajukenbo Legacy!

I hope this helps
WADR
GMReyes

Even within the confines of the Kajukenbo Cafe,,,John Bishop's had the title description of theoriginal method section as "ORIGINAL METHOD AKA KENPO-KARATE" with 13,000 plus views listed.
  

Thank you GM Reyes for that explaination, it will help me in being able to pass on that part of our history.

Tim

Offline cirillo

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Re: Emperado Method vs. Original Method...
« Reply #41 on: November 24, 2010, 08:32:16 PM »

Versions is a tough one for me to think about.  WHKD is supposed to always evolve, so you could say there were/are earlier and later versions and it is possible that there are differences between the earlier versions and the later ones, but with GM Dacascos giving constant updates on everything, it stays pretty coherent.  We meet yearly and update and/or clean up things, making all of the versions have the same foundation.  Every WHKD instructor has their own flavor, but the core is the same and is flexible, so I don't expect it to really have different versions.  Maybe that will change with time though, as do most things.
Sifu Jeffrey D. Cirillo,  7th Degree Black belt in Wun Hop Kuen Do under GM Al Dacascos and 3rd Degree in FaChuan (Blossom Fist) under Sifu Bill Owens with over 35 years experience in the martial arts.
College Station, TX