Author Topic: Kajukenbo's Future  (Read 56787 times)

Offline Ron Baker

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Re: Kajukenbo's Future
« Reply #150 on: December 20, 2010, 06:28:28 AM »
Quote
The purpose of the spreadsheet, as was indicated several weeks ago, was as a compilation of the thoughts and ideas that people offered.  Not to post banter or arguments or any kind of back-and-forth discussion that was unrelated to an actual idea or suggestion.  To the extent that some folks with ideas or suggestions requested that their identities be anonymous, I did so.  Those who posted their thoughts and ideas here on the Cafe (or on Emperado.com or MartialTalk.com) were--I assumed--doing so on a public basis and knowingly.  My approach was to put these ideas and suggestions in one place for all to see.  No commentary by me; no censoring by me (unless there was profanity, personal attacks, etc.).  Again, those who wanted their suggestions anonymous contacted me either by PM or via e-mail and requested it.

To help address the gentleman (or gentlewoman's) concerns, I can certainly modify the spreadsheet so that all ideas suggestions are anonymous.  In the meantime, I guarantee that only actual ideas and suggestions will be included.  And if there is ever a time when something isn't obvious, I will err on the side of not including it.

I hope this will help.

Professor Bishop:

Respectfully, may we have a finding as to the spreadsheet in question?  I ask because, even though some members have stated their concerns, other Cafe members have contacted me personally and have asked to continue receiving it. 

In forming your final finding, I respectfully ask that you consider the following:

--a modification to the document that will remove a poster's name; or

--a modification to the document that will remove a poster's name, date posted and originating forum; or

--a modification to Google Docs (where the spreadsheet can be accessed) to make it a private document, available ONLY upon request.

For the record, I offer to do this not as a concession that anyone's copyrights have been infringed -- IMO, copyright protection doesn't include ideas--but simply to compile and track the ideas that people are offering, and do it in a way that people can know that their ideas will be maintained in a reasonably controlled manner.

Thank you.


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Kajukenbo 5280 MMA Foundation
Under GM Jason Groff
Ordonez Kajukenbo Ohana

Offline Ghost Rider

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Re: Kajukenbo's Future
« Reply #151 on: December 20, 2010, 10:17:13 AM »
I for one don’t want what I say here posted anywhere else at all what so ever.
If I want it posted somewhere else then I will do so.
I do not post on other websites, and have been threatened with lawsuits more than once already.
You may not agree but some people will sue you when they don’t like what you say.
So much for freedom of speech
I know several Grandmasters that do not post here just for this reason.
If I find out someone is posting my comments somewhere else then I will stop posting as well as be calling that person on the phone.

Greg Harper
« Last Edit: December 20, 2010, 10:20:04 AM by Ghost Rider »
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Offline cirillo

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Re: Kajukenbo's Future
« Reply #152 on: December 20, 2010, 10:51:11 AM »

The rule seems pretty clear to me and copyright is also pretty clear.

You must contact the person (as well as the mutual holder (which in this case is probably the Cafe) that wrote the information to obtain their permission to post that information elsewhere BEFORE you post it somewhere else (not afterward and certainly not waiting to hear from them that it is not OK, it shouldn't be up to them to have to check your document).

In other words, you will have to remove your document and obtain permission from each individual before you post their text somewhere else.  As long as you obtain permission from the owner of the copyright, you are OK.  Copyright protects the text, not the ideas, so, even anonymously, you can't use the text in your own document without permission, it is considered plagiarism.

You have already heard from GM Harper about how he feels, so all of his text MUST be removed from the document.  You can keep the text for your own information, but you can't post it where anyone else can get the information.  However, I imagine that you could post the text that you found on the Cafe back on the Cafe, if you wanted, as a compendium of information in one location.

None of this prevents you from writing your own comments based on everything you have heard.   The copyright just prevents you from using someone else' words.  Also, out of courtesy, I wouldn't recommend using any identifying information in a document without permission.  That can just get people pissed off.

Sifu Jeffrey D. Cirillo,  7th Degree Black belt in Wun Hop Kuen Do under GM Al Dacascos and 3rd Degree in FaChuan (Blossom Fist) under Sifu Bill Owens with over 35 years experience in the martial arts.
College Station, TX

Offline John Bishop

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Re: Kajukenbo's Future
« Reply #153 on: December 20, 2010, 12:39:58 PM »

The rule seems pretty clear to me and copyright is also pretty clear.

You must contact the person (as well as the mutual holder (which in this case is probably the Cafe) that wrote the information to obtain their permission to post that information elsewhere BEFORE you post it somewhere else (not afterward and certainly not waiting to hear from them that it is not OK, it shouldn't be up to them to have to check your document).

In other words, you will have to remove your document and obtain permission from each individual before you post their text somewhere else.  As long as you obtain permission from the owner of the copyright, you are OK.  Copyright protects the text, not the ideas, so, even anonymously, you can't use the text in your own document without permission, it is considered plagiarism.

You have already heard from GM Harper about how he feels, so all of his text MUST be removed from the document.  You can keep the text for your own information, but you can't post it where anyone else can get the information.  However, I imagine that you could post the text that you found on the Cafe back on the Cafe, if you wanted, as a compendium of information in one location.

None of this prevents you from writing your own comments based on everything you have heard.   The copyright just prevents you from using someone else' words.  Also, out of courtesy, I wouldn't recommend using any identifying information in a document without permission.  That can just get people pissed off.



That explains our policy pretty well.  
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Offline Jason Goldsmith

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Re: Kajukenbo's Future
« Reply #154 on: December 20, 2010, 01:05:48 PM »
I understand the policy, but technically, can't someone quote someone's post anywhere, and as long as it is properly referenced, not break copyright?
Sifu Jason Goldsmith
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Tim Vargas

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Re: Kajukenbo's Future
« Reply #155 on: December 20, 2010, 01:22:20 PM »
I understand the policy, but technically, can't someone quote someone's post anywhere, and as long as it is properly referenced, not break copyright?

Yes, because a quote is not a "work", unless its contained within the body of a "work", whether published or not, then references are in order.

The ONLY person I see here who has any type of protection under current internet laws, etc. is Sifu Ron Baker. He mentioned in the very FIRST post:  "For those so inclined, I humbly ask that you please express your interest whether it's by post or via PM.  Please also feel free to send a confidential e-mail.  Your privacy will be highly respected." 

For any of us who took a big *bite* and posted in response to his "work", by being so "inclined", you have forfeited your right to demand anything.  You dont like your words to be used in Sifu Ron's "work" , then dont participate.  From what I could tel though, is that it was not Sifu Ron's intention to "steal" anything from anyone.  Ultimately it would be the decision of a Judge to decide who was right and who was wrong, "IF" someone were to spend the cash to go to court.


Offline Danjo

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Re: Kajukenbo's Future
« Reply #156 on: December 20, 2010, 02:02:45 PM »
Sifu Tim,
I don't think anyone is trying to say that there was any bad intent by Sifu Ron in his posting his spreadsheet. Clearly this is more about people expressing their concerns over using their posts in ways they didn't anticipate or intend. Like Prof. Bishop said,the concern was sated as a courtesy issue, and it ought to be treated that way by everyone. No harm was intended, but now that Sifu Ron knows, he ought to respect the wishes of those involved.
"Rank Without Honor is Nothing."
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Don't tell me how much you honor Sijo, if you don't respect his wishes.

Offline Ron Baker

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Re: Kajukenbo's Future
« Reply #157 on: December 20, 2010, 02:43:01 PM »
I'm perfectly fine with not including people's verbatim posts.  I'll just summarize them, and I will not include their names at all. 

I'm thinking that will (a) respect people's anonymity and (b) ease concerns about their posts being viewed somewhere beside the Cafe.  It's an easy fix, and won't take any time at all.  Best of all, people can return to contributing their ideas with peace of mind.  Thanks GM Harper, Sifu Tim, Jason G. and Danjo for your responses.
Sigung (Shihan) Ron Baker
Kajukenbo 5280 MMA Foundation
Under GM Jason Groff
Ordonez Kajukenbo Ohana

Offline John Bishop

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Re: Kajukenbo's Future
« Reply #158 on: December 20, 2010, 03:23:19 PM »
There is already case law concerning internet forums and copyrights.  But that is beside the point.  Unlike other websites and forums, the Cafe administration is not going to sue anyone, or even threaten to sue anyone.  
BUT, the Cafe is a privately owned website and it's owner/staff can establish any membership rules and restrictions it feels are appropriate.

Members should be assured that their posts are not duplicated at other locations without their permission.  Without this type of assurance, many members will be hesitant to participate candidly, or at all in discussions taking place here.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2010, 03:35:54 PM by John Bishop »
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Offline Jason Goldsmith

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Re: Kajukenbo's Future
« Reply #159 on: December 20, 2010, 03:34:27 PM »
Absolutely, and that makes perfect sense.  What got confusing for me was the mention of copyright lawyers, etc.
Sifu Jason Goldsmith
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Offline Ghost Rider

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Re: Kajukenbo's Future
« Reply #160 on: December 20, 2010, 03:45:12 PM »
I’m not angry at anyone just making it clear that I am just having a talk among friends.
And I would like it to stay at that level.
Ron I will say here in front of everyone that I am not upset with you at all.
Tim Vargas it sounds to me like you are saying in a roundabout way that it’s too bad for me.
And if I don’t like it then be quiet and don’t post my opinion.
That can be arranged.
But if that’s what your trying to say then come out and say it don’t beat around the bush about it.
I come here to share ideas with my Kajukenbo family.
But it seems to me as I said before that some here just want to argue and impress people with what they think they know.
Sifu Ron is making an effort to do what he thinks will help and that’s good.
But not everyone will agree with him, you or me.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2010, 05:03:49 PM by Ghost Rider »
Greg Harper
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Head instructor, Kajupit MMA
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Tim Vargas

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Re: Kajukenbo's Future
« Reply #161 on: December 20, 2010, 08:12:59 PM »
I’m not angry at anyone just making it clear that I am just having a talk among friends.
And I would like it to stay at that level.
Ron I will say here in front of everyone that I am not upset with you at all.
Tim Vargas it sounds to me like you are saying in a roundabout way that it’s too bad for me.
And if I don’t like it then be quiet and don’t post my opinion.
That can be arranged.
But if that’s what your trying to say then come out and say it don’t beat around the bush about it.
I come here to share ideas with my Kajukenbo family.
But it seems to me as I said before that some here just want to argue and impress people with what they think they know.
Sifu Ron is making an effort to do what he thinks will help and that’s good.
But not everyone will agree with him, you or me.


No, I say what I mean and mean what I say.  There is nothing addressed in my post to you GM Harper, but is a general statement to anyone who has participated in this thread, including myself, since the subject came up about copyrights, statements, and who can and can not do this or that.  Sifu Ron has taken every step to make sure he does not offend anyone while at the same time, taking a different approach in what he sees as possibly making Kajukenbo stronger, thats awesome, especially coming from amongst us *low rankers*.   

Where I see a real need though is *international* recognition, as in the Sifu who is in Portugal (GM Garcia's guy, which I dont know his name and cant look it up while responding to this message).  There is a real need especially for them to open schools in their countries, and not have to join a Karate Federation in order to operate, having to use another styles standards, etc.  The route Sifu Ron is taking could be a catalyst for setting up such international recognition for those countries who require such. 

There are alot of people who have no need for another organization, I am one of those, BUT I wont stand in the way of those who do.

Offline Ghost Rider

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Re: Kajukenbo's Future
« Reply #162 on: December 20, 2010, 09:35:29 PM »
Thank you.   
Greg Harper
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Offline Ghost Rider

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Re: Kajukenbo's Future
« Reply #163 on: December 21, 2010, 12:22:07 PM »
I think I take things too personal.
GM Bautista and I were just talking about it the other day.
I think I just need to as they say chill out for awhile.
I do not think Kajukenbo is weak at this time.
But we have lost many of our key people; we need to focus on the future.
As an example I recently lost my aunt (Mother of 9 children) to cancer.
She was also my father’s twin and the corner stone of our family, on the holidays everyone gathered at her house.
Anywhere from 30 to 50 at a time (full house)
She was the reason we all stayed close.
Now that she’s no longer with us we no longer gather, we are losing what we once had, a big strong close family.
As I said to Professor Tim Gagnier on the phone yesterday I need to just mind my own flock and let others do the same.
The future will be what it will be.
As far as the high or low rank thing, I have said it before.
It’s not what you say it’s what’s in your heart,  Its not what you call yourself but how you conduct yourself.

Greg Harper
senior instructor, Gumataotao Kajukenbo
Head instructor, Kajupit MMA
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Offline Ron Baker

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Re: Kajukenbo's Future
« Reply #164 on: December 21, 2010, 02:19:57 PM »
After concerns were expressed, I modified the spreadsheet of ideas and suggestions so that (a) names of contributors were removed; (b) whether it came from a forum or offline; and (c) the posts are no longer verbatim, but rather a summary of the post.  And, as with the previous version, it is only accessible by those who actually have the link. 

I sincerely hope this helps, and that people won't be discouraged from offering their ideas and thoughts.

Ron

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B9mU0bQkrbAeNjRjNmU0OWUtYWM3MS00YmZkLTkyZWEtNmM4OTViNjI0Njhi&hl=en&authkey=CJja7rUL

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