Author Topic: Martial Arts and the Law  (Read 17383 times)

Offline palama50

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Re: Martial Arts and the Law
« Reply #15 on: April 23, 2003, 06:45:39 AM »
Aloha and thanks to all for the good points made thus far especially Shihan Shuras and KBO. I'm also in Law Enforcement. this is quite an interesting subject. However the issue of Self Defense is a moral issue first(my opinion).. that's why the Law presents so many dynamic questions. When attacked One either chooses to survive or not. if we had to apply the Law to every situation or techninque of self defense (as civilians) prior to using it... we would be in a much different place in terms of our given right to self preservation . When attacked you must fight to stop the threat and not go beyond!(often difficult)Our Kajukenbo groundwork is an example of "beyond" when applied after your threat is stopped . You must also be able to articulate your situation to a police officer who,  as pointed out  
may likely charge both or all parties involved. Training and experience provide valuable choices when confronted with a situation . Mahalo to all !

Mike Merlino
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« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »

adacas

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Re: Martial Arts and the Law
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2003, 07:25:21 AM »
Here is something else I will throw into the couldron. People around here like to carry guns.  Especially little punks who think they are real men for carrying guns.  I don't like guns. Too slow, too loud, too illegal.  I have a thing for knives though.  I carry them most of the time except for when I am at school and can only think of using them in the most scariest of situations involving attackers with weapons or even that 6'6", 300 lbs former linebacker who wants to kill me with his barehands who I would not stand a chance against at my present state.  :-[ Like using hands on someone, when are you in the right to pull a knife.  I have only have had to use my knife once against another guy with a knife.  Walking through downtown in broad daylight some dude walks in front of me, eyes more glazed than a jelly donut and bloodshot.  Then he starts mumbling and pulls his knife on me.  I knew the guy was stoned out of his mind and I was scared but luckily he soon quite as I got the first slice on his forearm.  I was scared to death but was I in the right legally or should I have taken a couple of new scars.  I felt I did what was best for me.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »

Offline Sensei_Sue

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Re: Martial Arts and the Law
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2003, 08:06:54 AM »
When we are attacked, yes, we must defend ourselves.  However, if we are not attacked, but decide to get face to face with some guy who decided to push over our bike (for an example) then I don't believe that we made the right decision.  

I would argue (if I was the one who pushed over the bike) that though my action was not justified and I should pay for any damages to the bike, that the action of the person who just beat me up with Kajukenbo technique #5 (I'm just making that up.... if you couldn't tell!) was also not justified.  

And I would think the punishment for assualt would be greater than the punishment for pushing over the bike.

It sounds to me that a lot of the guys here in law enforcement (thank you, by the way.  for what you do) are the ones who would confront the individual.  That's just becuase of your training as a police officer.  And you're probably carrying a handgun on your side!

I once heard of a guy who was jumped by this other guy who demanded his wallet.  After the black belt kicked him to the ground, the injured man pulled a gun and shot the black belt, killing him.  :'(

I say let the guy who just smacked my car, bike, whatever, walk away.  Call the cops and let them handle it.   :)

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »

Karazenpo

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Re: Martial Arts and the Law
« Reply #18 on: April 23, 2003, 08:15:50 AM »
 Since the incident with Nagi was with my police department I will answer the question on what if he did not know the officer. It wouldn't have mattered, according, and again, this is according to our policies and procedures. I am familiar with the incident and Ronnie's (Nagi) response is what is classified as a 'simple' assault & battery, past misdemeanor not committed in the presence of a police officer-is not arrestable in our state. The other party may go to district court and take assault & battery charges out if neccessary. However, the attack with the walking stick is considered assault w/ a dangerous weapon, and if actually made contact with Ron, battery with a dangerous weapon-the assault/DW or the assault & battery/DW are felonies and did not have to happen in the presence of police to be arrestable. If Ron's account seemed resonable to the officer versus the other man's account than the officer could have arrested the man with the stick, if Ron pushed the issue. The damage to the truck could be added as malicious destruction of personal property and is not arrestable by itself, but may be summonsed by police. If the officer saw it, the man could have been arrested for a disorderly person and charged with malicious destruction of personal property also. If the officer is in doubt and both accounts are plausible and felonious, he may arrest both, if not felonious, just advise both parties that they may take charges against each other in district court. Note: if the beating caused such serious injury and no weapon or shod foot, such as a boot, was used, it is no longer simple A&B but now a felony and arrestable even though the officer didn't see it.
  As far as going one step higher in the use of force to overcome a violent suspect, I couldn't agree more. I have been a police officer since 1977 and officially a Massachusetts state certified Defensive/Tactics, Officer Survival and Firearms Instructor since 1985. I have also testified in court as a training officer and and I couldn't agree with KBOWarrior more on this subject. Use the same amount of force, you won't sudue him and if you even did, you would have sustained injuries that were unneccessary. Cops are trained, equipped and paid to 'win', not lose! ;)
   On self defense in the school systems, its the same out here in Massachusetts, I've had similiar situations over the years with my students of school age. It seems the schools are run by people who are extreme left wing liberal-not a good thing when it comes to defending yourself. If these same people ran the government during Hitler's reign, we'd be, "Sig, Hiel!!!!!!!!" right now and wouldn't be expressing our freedom of opinions on this website at the moment. ;)  
   Palama50-Right on, brother! We're definitely on the same page, but Sensei Sue, the statemnt that this guy might be really having a 'bad day'?  Well, maybe (if proved guilty) Robert Blake was having a bad day!, maybe (if found guilty) Scott Peterson was having a bad day!!!!!!! Sorry, and respectfully, that don't cut it with me! I have a bad day, friends of mine have a bad day and I'm sure people on this board have a bad day but we certainly don't conduct ourselves in that manner. No sympathy from me to him on that one! :P  Snapping at someone because you had a rough day (which is more in line of what we would do) is a lot different from attacking somebody with a stick, and it doesn't matter to me if he's 'nuts' or not. Certain behavior in our society is just not tolerated no matter what your problem is, otherwise we'd have utter chaos and running from the school bully only fueled the bully's fire & desire to keep beating on you! That's why Saddam has been in power for 25 years until he ran into George W. As far as the male testosterone thing goes causing male egos to go astray then I know many women that should be sporting mustaches right now! ;D Just my opinions, please don't take anything personal. This is what makes this discussion so interesting right now, we agree to disagree! :) Your round!  :)  Shihan Joe
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »

Offline Sensei_Sue

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Re: Martial Arts and the Law
« Reply #19 on: April 23, 2003, 08:41:23 AM »
Shihan Shuras,

You are an extremist!   ;D

Do you really think we can put pushing over a bike in the same catagory with Scott Peterson (who by the way is innocent until proven guilty!) who is charge with killing his wife and unborn baby and then dumping them in the bay?  

Or can we really compare Saddam with the bike pusher?  Or even the cane guy?

You're stretching it!   :-/

I'm talking about the clear cut decision to step up an event from being nothing more than some dude who decided to push over your bike, to an assualt and battery charge (on someone... who?  I don't know).

It seems to me to be that the better idea would be to just call you in to take care of this guy for me!   ;)

Now if this "bike pusher" took a swing at me, or tried to assult me, personally, then I would be forced to defend myself.  But if all he did was push over my bike and walk away, then I would call the police if there was damage to my bike.

Like you said.... you are paid to WIN!  I don't get paid to risk my life at all!!  You should ask for a raise!   ;D


Your round.   ;)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »

Offline Mike Nagano

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I'm not a police officRe: Martial Arts and the Law
« Reply #20 on: April 23, 2003, 09:41:05 AM »
I, too, do not believe it's my place to enforce the law in anyway that could put myself in danger.  Defense of my person and my family, of course, is another matter....

I'm not a police officer, and cannot add anything other than a different angle.  I am a special ed. teacher of children with learning disabilities (many have behavior issues).  I realize I have a life outside of the classroom (and am proud of that, since many teachers don't).  However, I do have a responsibility concerning my own behavior.  I once saw a student of mine while I was walking through a casino in Vegas.  Another teacher I know saw a student of his in line at Disney World in Florida (and we're in California!).  My point is (since I know those incidents are very rare) I feel teachers (martial arts teachers as well), like professional athletes, need to be careful of their actions.  Those who look up to us are out there when we leave the school.  (In fact, I got my only ticket down the street from a school I taught at.  The next day, all I heard was "Mr. Nagano did I see you...?"  Yeah yeah yeah...Very embarrassing!)

The martial arts should not be something we need to prove we can do.  It's something we need to prove we don't need to do...if we can help it.

Besides, as Sensei Sue mentioned, that's what police officers are for.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »
Sifu Mike Nagano
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Karazenpo

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Re: Martial Arts and the Law
« Reply #21 on: April 23, 2003, 10:27:17 AM »
And Sensei Sue, aren't you a 'beeding heart' liberal? True? All in fun now, you said it was my round! :D My post only refers to Nagi's incident which in my opinion, is a more serious issue than the bike thing. That is what I am and have been addressing. Now, my use of analogies or examples to make a point is mean't to be an 'extreme' example of what can happen when this type of behavior is not addressed aggressively enough and goes unchecked by the 'politically correct'. Sometimes to get a point across or to attempt to have someone re-evaluate their position, you have to give a clear cut example that basically shows the big picture of what can grow out of these lawless acts if everyone decides to handle it like 'Hans Blikx' ;) Didn't Jeffrey Darhma (sp.?) torture and kill animals before graduating to human beings? Law enforcement personnel see things differently than most middle to upper class citizens just as some of the street experienced civillians on this forum have have also. We deal with the dark realities of life. So Extremist, No, Realist, Yes! There is a portion of our population that may live rather 'sheltered' lives and do not experience the violence and 'whackos' out there through first hand encounters until it sometimes, unfortunately, hits home. They go to work, go home to the white picket fence with the dog in the yard and safely watch CNN from their easy chair and living rooms. Not a bad thing! It would be like me going around saying I know how the P.O.W.'s felt as they went through captivity not knowing if they were going to wake up the next morning. Not my place. Do you think that is an extreme example. I don't. I'm just expressing that I stick to only what I know from first hand experience, specific training and knowledge of working the streets and leave the battlefield strategies for our trained military. In the words of 'Clint Eastwood' in Magnum Force, "A good man knows his limitations". (and a good woman should too! ;D )
Respectfully, Shihan Joe
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »

Offline Sensei_Sue

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Re: Martial Arts and the Law
« Reply #22 on: April 23, 2003, 11:08:26 AM »
Shihan Shuras,

I totally agree that if someone tries to hurt another, than that person needs to be stopped.  I just don't think that as a martial artist it is my duty to teach all those bad guys a lesson.

As a martial artist I feel comfortable enough to deal with a situation if I had to.  But I don't want find out unless I have to.  What if I'm wrong!   :o

Liberal?  Me?  Nope.  I'm in favor of this war and support the death penalty.  But that is for another message board!

Oh, and another good saying:  Behind every good man is a GREAT woman!  :P
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »

Karazenpo

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Re: Martial Arts and the Law
« Reply #23 on: April 23, 2003, 11:45:21 AM »
Good come back, Sensei, especially the last quote! :) Even though we argue, kind of, I'm really getting to like you! :) You've got 'spunk' and I can picture you dropping that big guy with kick & a wrist lock! :) Okay, you're not liberal but for a while there ('really bad day' thing), you started sounding like a defense attorney!, LOL :D  I see the point 'mnagano' makes as for leaving it to the police, we even stress to civillians to let us handle situations rather than taking it into their own hands. Maybe my opinions reflect the fact that as a cop I'm , the one that's called to handle it. I remember years ago , a friend of mine, another police officer was home with his wife sleeping when she heard a noise in the house and woke him. He got up and also heard the noise and said to his wife, "Call the cops!" She looked at him and said, "You are the cops!',lol,  :D On a more serious note isn't it embedded in our Constitution that we have right to defend and protect life & PROPERTY, if we so CHOOSE........there's that word again that comes from CHOICES! In Massachusetts, there are two license to carry a handgun permits. One states for Target & Sporting, the other reads For Protection of Life & PROPERTY. Some use the term For Any Lawful Purpose. I may be wrong, but I believe it is our constitutional right to defend our property. Now, that word, CHOICES! Should we decide to or not is up to us. Can we get hurt or killed in doing so, yes, again, it's all about CHOICES! I chose to be a police officer, not the safest occupation to choose but it was my choice. Excellent discussion and Sensei Sue I respect your opinion and always look forward to your responses. You sure you're not a defense attorney! ;D   Shihan Joe
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »

Offline Sensei_Sue

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Re: Martial Arts and the Law
« Reply #24 on: April 23, 2003, 11:51:15 AM »
Shihan Shuras wrote: "You sure you're not a defense attorney!"


I'll have to take "the 5th" on that one!   ;)


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »

Karazenpo

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Re: Martial Arts and the Law
« Reply #25 on: April 23, 2003, 12:15:13 PM »
Sensei Sue:

   I KNEW IT!, I KNEW IT!, I KNEW IT!  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

                                      LOL, Shihan Joe
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »

Offline Mike Nagano

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Re: Martial Arts and the Law
« Reply #26 on: April 23, 2003, 01:49:40 PM »
To Shihan Shuras and Sensei Sue,

I've enjoyed your interaction.  I think that is a good example of what this forum was set up for.  Thank you.

Mike Nagano
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »
Sifu Mike Nagano
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Karazenpo

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Re: Martial Arts and the Law
« Reply #27 on: April 23, 2003, 04:46:50 PM »
 And Thank You!, Mike :)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »

Offline KBOWARRIOR

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Re: Martial Arts and the Law
« Reply #28 on: April 23, 2003, 10:29:20 PM »
I agree with alot of the comments, but one thing you have to realize about the use of force to protect property is that it still must been reasonable.  If someone hits your hood, you can not get out and break his arm.  If you use force, you are going to have to prove that there was imminent danger to you or another person.  Just like the police. We can not just go around beating up someone because we want to, we have to be justified in our use of force.  In California your life is not automatically assumed to be in danger, you are going to have to articulate to a officer, district attorney, judge, or possibly a jury why you used force on someone.  This is true anywhere except for a residence.  If you are at home and someone breaks into your residence, you are automatically assumed to have fear for your life and you can use lethal force without seeing a weapon or being threatened by the subject.  I have been to a few of these calls where force was used by a citizen on someone breaking into their homes.  1 of those times that force was fatal.  
    What the officer arriving at a call for service like that of Nagi is going be looking at are the following.  The subject came by and struck the vehicle, that is easy to prove as there should be a dent or visible damage to the vehicle.  Did the subject make any threats to Nagi or gestures that indicated he was a threat to Nagi.  When Nagi got out of the vehicle and confronted the subject as he was walking away, Nagi was basically the aggressor at that point.  Sure the person turned around and then attacked Nagi, but the officer and district attorney will focus on the fact the person was leaving and Nagi confronted him.  That is were you might get charged with battery.  One of the tests for self defense always is was there a route you could have used to leave the area without force being used.  If there is that is what will get you in trouble.  Inside the residence it is given that you are stuck there and that is why lethal force is available.  In that situation, the person damaged your vehicle and if you are going to make the choice to confront him you might think on the following.  That person broke the law and in California as a citizen you are able to make a citizen's arrest.  Tell the person that you are placing them under citizens arrest for hitting your car and if they attack you at that point you are able to use the force needed to arrest that person.  Don't use profanity, but speak in a loud clear vioce so that if anyone standing around will also hear you tell the person that he was under arrest.  The drawback is that as a citizen you are still liable for civil action if that person wishes to sue you not only for the force used against him, but also for false arrest.  If you are going to do this you better make sure that the person has violated the law, not just think he did.
     When it comes to property, I know it is hard to do, but call the police and let us handle it..."that is why we get paid the big bucks...ya right"  Even off duty, officers are trained to be good witnesses, and not get involved.  They might be armed, but they don't have a radio to call for assistance if needed or the other gear they wear on duty, a bullet proof vest.  The most skilled martial artist can be taken out by a 12 yr old and a gun.  The person your confronting on something like this could have a weapon and you most likely will not.  It takes a split second to pull a gun and shoot it.  Are you that confident in your skills that you would go up against someone armed like that.  In a situation where I am forced to act yes, I believe I have the skills to stop that person, but I don't think I want to test them without good cause off duty.  I am a male, 6-4 240 pounds and I am trained as a police officer and am on the tactical entry/SWAT team.  If I can say let him go with my head held high, so can any other male... 8)    
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »
Sifu Mark Wallace
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Karazenpo

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Re: Martial Arts and the Law
« Reply #29 on: April 24, 2003, 06:51:07 AM »
  If I may just address a few things in the last two posts. Professor Scott is right. As law enforcement officers sometimes we just react to a situation just a as you may react to someone taking a swing at you. You don't anaylize the situation, you just respond reflexively do to your training. I'm not saying right or wrong, just agreeing with the Professor, that is the way it is from our experiences anyway.
   KBOWARRIOR, if I may respectfully address your post. Nagi had the legal right to get out of his vehicle, even if the suspect was walking away, in an attempt to ascertain who he is for legal damages or at least criminal charges to be summonsed to court to answer for his improper behavior. If not, Nagi would have to pay to have the hood of his 'brand new' truck repaired out of his own pocket and the suspect would not be held accountable for this unacceptable behavior which means he would be encouraged to repeat such behavior. Again, its still about choices, but its his choice, not ours to make for him.
   To address the amount of force used and the broken arm example. Ten years or so ago,(when this occurred) it was a trend in our municipality of some people to carry 'walking sticks' as weapons and not because they needed them do to a medical condition. If they were walking around at 9pm at night with a baseball bat through town they would have some explaining to do to the local authorites, but who's going to question a walking stick. That being said, to use a stick of that nature in an assault would be considered a felony and Nagi's use of force escalates to a higher level. Correct me if I'm wrong but in all my training classes in Massachusetts (a liberal state) we've been taught if someone threatens us with a weapon of such, we have the right to create distance, draw our handgun, tell him to stop and if he does not heed our warnings and charges us, to sidestep and fire two rounds center mass. We've been told by many instructors attempting to disarm would be considered tombstone courage. That is why in police defensive tactics courses they rarely teach club disarming techniques and if they do you are told its because you can't get to your handgun in time. Chemical sprays are also discouraged and considered an inapproppiate level of force for a weapon assault, in other words, an under reaction. So, obviously, an unarmed Nagi, has a broader scope in his use of force in that encounter.
   Citizen's arrest. Not for the intial siutation, can't do it. A civillian has the right of a citizen's arrest for a felony that he witnesses in his presence. The suspect originally committed a misdeameanor when he pummelled Nagi's hood with the stick-no right of citizen's arrest until Nagi approached him and he swung the stick, now you have a felony but we're right back to where I started. Nagi did nothing illegal or inaapropiate in his response to the property damage or the affray.   Respectfully submitted, Shihan Joe
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:04 PM by -1 »