Fight-or-flight and internal training

[D-Man]

Okay, I posted this topic under the Tum Pai section a week ago, and got ZERO responces.  Let's see what happens in the popular Martial Arts Talk section...

Will the internal Martial Arts work when you’re actually attacked?
 
Let me start off by saying that I have faithfully and happily practiced Tum Pai (a very soft internal branch of Kajukenbo) for a while now, and I am not questioning the skill that it develops.  I’ve seen it, used it, and most importantly-and-painfully, felt it used on me.  It works.
 
I have been reading a book called “Emotional Intelligence” by Daniel Goleman.  He explains that the amygdala part of the brain (the subconscious part of the brain used for survival; triggers fight or flight, and other emotions) will HIJACK the neocortex (the thinking brain; solves problems in rational ways) under stressfull situations.  He says that this was a useful survival mechanism for us as primitive beings.  I totally agree that this hijacking occurs, just look at what happens when someone startles the – out of us.
 
Part of internal training is retraining the way our body has learned to do things (no animalistic muscling).  With all of the chemical reactions that happen in the body during the fight or flight phase, will our body take over, tense up, and go crazy?  I’m not talking about a controlled, fore-seen situation like some gentleman’s dual on main street at high noon.  I’m talking about a situation where your walkin through your house in the middle of the night, half asleep scratchin you butt without a care in the world except for getting back to bed, and all of the sudden Freddy Krueger jumps out at you with a automatic shot gun.
 
I’m not after a reply that tells me about “always being aware.”  
 
WILL THE INTERNAL TRAINING KICK IN?
 
I'm interested in everyone's opinions or experiences.

[Karazenpo]

D-Man, I don't know much about Tum Pai (I study a subsystem of the Kempo Karate branch of Kajukenbo) but I would say, why not? It's an effective means of self defense, like you said , you've felt its pain and it works for you. Imho, it would have the same chance of 'kicking in' as any other art would. I think the question would involve the individual. How well and how long has he/she been training and what is their level of ability?

[D-Man]

To clarify-

When I say "internal martial arts", I am talking about them all; Tai Chi, Ba Qua, Hsing I.  I am using Tum Pai as an example because many Kajukenbo practitioners are familiar with it.

[Karazenpo]

Am I correct in assuming then you must extract or have self defense techniques practiced in actual application from the forms. I have never taken an internal art but I did take Wah Lum Kung Fu (Northern Shaolin) for a while and were told we had to extract self defense techniques from the forms. I'm more comfortable with a system that has 'techniques' as part of the curriculum along with the forms, basics and sparring. That way seemed to work best for me but everyone is different. Again, sorry, but I've never studied an 'internal' art so forgive my ignorance.

[D-Man]

By all means, I forgive you Shihan Joe Shuras .  I agree with you on your stance about techniques over forms.  Let me explain a little about the internal arts and Tum Pai.  Read on if your interested.  First of all, Shaolin Kung Fu is very different from the three internal arts, almost the opposite.  The internal arts work on cultivating chi and directing chi (nothing mystical, just proper body mechanics) and zhung ding, or “central equilibrium.”  They promote the use of internal bone and tendon strength instead of muscle power.  We actually learned to “let go of our muscles” to develop a relaxed-power.  Also, these arts are not just forms, there are a lot of exercises involved to develop the art.  They can be practiced as a martial art, or as an exercise to add structure and power to the movements of another martial art (I train in a tai chi class where there are 90 year olds, then move on to the Kajukenbo class where I use what I learned and developed.)  Hsing I is actually a very, straight-to-the-point, combat applicable, “no bs” internal art taught to the higher officers in historical Chinese army.  Tum Pai incorporates Tai Chi into the principles and techniques of Kajukenbo.

It is this process of training the body not to rely on it’s muscles that concerns me; when the amygdala triggers the body’s hyper actions, I might think that the muscles will tense up.---That’s in relation to my question.

[kungpoo]

If I may add to your topic.  Tony Blauer from Canada has some great info.  about this topic.  With reference to the flinch response and the fight or flight reaction.  I have found the information to be of great value when it comes to assessing my training.  I know that the more information we have on this the better.  There is info on the web under his name or the you can try S.P.E.A.R. If you are serious about creating a response that you know will work you will like the tapes he offers.
  Good Luck

[Karazenpo]

Okay, D-Man, I got ya!  Your explaination of the internal is what I have been taught only without as much emphasis placed on it. I feel all arts are generally related, what distinguishes one from another is where the emphasis lies. Shotokan is a hard, linear style but still has some soft, circulartory movements. Since all externally classed arts have a bit of the internal in them, I do follow your explaination. So, putting this aside, I would say your inquiry would be if your training in the internal will "over-ride" the amygdala in a moment of the startle response or will the flight/fight(amygdala) response kick in? Good question.    I don't know but I can give you something to consider.
  Once when I went for my Master Instructor re-certification in police defensive tactics we conducted this exercise. Those participating and instructing were seasoned veterans, either as police officers and/or defensive tactics instructors along with some black belts. We geared up for protection, then with the lights on, we had someone assault us and the responses were right on the money, swift and skillful. We also used quick grabs in the assaults from different angles.
 Everyone felt good in their performance. Next, we blindfolded the defending officers and shut of the lights in the gym. Now, even though everyone did extremely well considering the handicap, there was still a startle response. Admittedly, much less then an untrained and unexperienced individual, such as when performed on recruits, but nonetheless, it was still there. My guess would be, its possible to cut down on reaction time but I really don't think you can over-ride it (the flash of tension) completely. There will be a moment of tensed muscle reaction (quick contraction) when suprised like that but a trained individual should recover pretty quickly but if its a sucker punch, knife assault or gun shot it may definitely not be quick enough. Those are my thoughts on it.  

[Mell]

I think Shihan brings up a vital point in his post.  It address the issue of how we train.  

If we always train in a controlled environment, I believe chances are good that our internal responses will not kick in.  How often do you in training have your students randomly attack each other, without a predetermination of what technique you will be doing, or the attack being delivered?  How often do we turn the lights off and simulate environments outside of our comfort zone?  Do we step up the level of intensity of striking with our upper rank students to allow them to feel discomfort (within reason of not injuring each other) and learn to function in those environments?    

I think these are important issues to consider in training students for reality.  Hope this wasn't to far off base with where you were going in your question.

[hunter]

Is there any TUMPAI (internal training kaj) material out there?
DVDs?