Author Topic: reality based training  (Read 20748 times)

Offline Tim Vargas

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Re: reality based training
« Reply #45 on: May 29, 2014, 12:43:36 AM »
ok flash back when grand master gaylord started black belt class there was about 30 to 40 of us all black belts most with big egos including my self in a short time there was about 7 of us left becouse of the no hold back techniques like for exsample punching attact three gm gaylord put one of my black belts head  threw the sheetrock in my school gm gaylord pulled him out threw him on the floor and said you guys get that! that day two black belts got knocked out cold doing the punching attacks one got cholked out until he passed out. so one of the higher black belts and i will leave his name out, went to gm gaylord and said he needs to lighten up some as these guys had to work the next day! and he did but the classes were never the same after that day....but that was old school back then and all of us old timers can relate to that kind of traning, but you can train hard right now but times have changed and you cant trian old school ! and you guys can post we still trian that way but if you did you would have no students to pay your rent today , not saying your not traing hard just not old school if so you will  get sued for everthing as soon as you get a broken arm teeth kocked out ect its sad but time have changed......................


                                                                        grand master hemenes

So true GM Hemenes.  Prof. GM Vargas has some good stories of GGM G's old demos and how hard core he was, no wonder he was afraid of him ;o).  I bet if you got all of the original old school Gaylord students ( the Twelve Disciples) together, they would have a good time and could write an awesome book about how it was here in the Bay Area in the 60's and 70's...long gone are those days.
Tim Vargas:  Chief Instructor directly under the late GGM Gaylord. OKO

Offline Iakona

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Re: reality based training
« Reply #46 on: May 29, 2014, 05:43:48 AM »
The title of this thread is "reality based training".   No one could argue about the training methods  being used, as I believe all training methods are useful to someone, somewhere in the world, including the "slippy slappy" or "Disney land" technique training.   I too have seen kajukenbo videos which focus on speed, but speed doesn't necessarily mean it is without power.  I think we can all agree that power used in the right way is just as good as speed in the right way, but if you have power and speed, then you even do better.   As was mentioned, Kajukenbo is not for everyone, but everyone can train...one reason is we have various methods with various philosophies, which brings up my other point. 

 I was never taught, nor have I ever heard GGM Gaylord say, to just punch people with preemptive attacks for being too close to someone talking, but rather that Kajukenbo is Self Defense.  Part of the training I received was that you would pretty much do everything you could to deter a fight, where everyone walks away being able to live another day and be with their loved ones.  Ofcourse, if there is an eminent danger that we could prevent, by all means, our training instills in us the confidence to take care of the situation, protecting ourselves and our loved ones.    So although I definitely agree with the training methods mentioned, I respectfully disagree with its use.  There is a legal implication to preemptive attacks, having to go through the hassle of trying to justify our use of force in court, also being susceptible to being sued, where an inventory of what all your assets are ($$$), etc., pretty much invading you and your families privacy because lawyers are out to earn a buck, is not a philosophy that I live nor one that I pass on to my students.

I hope no one takes offense at what I have typed, and if I did offend anyone, please forgive me, as that is not my intention, but merely my humble opinion.

Aloha Chief Tim,

You make some great points. Being able to perceive and discern when a threat is imminent is key. I'm no lawyer, but most of the statutory language in the self defense laws across the land talk about when lesser means have failed and that imminent jeopardy must exist in order to use force. Imminent jeopardy meaning the attacker has intent, capability, and opportunity at that given time to do you or somebody else some  bodily harm. The defender has to be able to articulate that to the law.  Some factors or variables that may justify some pre-emptive measures are; size and age disparity, gender difference, multiple attackers, defender is injured, attacker is close to or has a weapon, attacker has a known history of violence or advanced skill level, etc. Usually when the cops show up the guy on the ground goes to the hospital, while the guy standing goes to jail. People like to say, "I'd rather be judged by 12, than carried by 6". What they don't realize is they may have to end up using their Kaju to defend against getting raped by 6 in the lock up, if they were found to be malicious in the situation that got them there. The civil liability can be immense as well. The liability can be vicarious (meaning poop rolls up hill) for the instructor if the student hurts somebody without being justified. Gone are the days, at least in Hawaii, where if ya can't get along then get it on and scrap, as it apparently was in the early days of Kajukenbo. I know of a couple that are serving time for felonious assault for giving somebody dirty lickens and preemptively striking them. Some have gotten misdemeanors.

As far as training, all of the Kajukenbo techniques (punch counters, grab arts, knife and club tricks) are reactive. So to profess being a kajukenbo practictioner and advocating strike first is a contradiction in training theory as the techniques are were designed to be defensive. Being proactive means not putting yourself in bad places and situations where the likelihood of an encounter may occur. People who boast of many street fights are probably looking for it as about 90% of self defense is avoidance of those situations. Of course those who work in public safety are employed to be in harms way. Situation dictates response.

When it does come, and yeah it's not a matter of if, it's when, then I like to counter strike in combos of 3 round bursts, sort of like semi auto on the m16.  and give em some spirit, mind, and body. The number 4 is also a good symbolic number to use as it represents death in the Chinese mythos. Or better yet 5 for the five founders of Kajukenbo. Nothing wrong with the Kajukenbo techniques for reality. it's how you train them. We drill them in a part whole approach, meaning break down and isolate the limb destruction, entry, takedown, and finish. Then put it all together. Yeah, the fight will rarely play out like a whole punch counter, but it gives you an answer or plan if the guy doesn't go down in that first couple moves. Plus Grandma always said to clean up your plate good meaning follow through completely. I do use lead open hand checks, which could be interpreted as pokes, rakes, flicks, and palm strikes, consistently whether empty hand, or knife and stick work. Mainly to control distance and placement of strikes. Train it enough on heavy bags, sand bags, tires, etc. it can be an effective tool in itself like a jab to set up the finisher strike. Folks can see it at work in the OKO dvds. Take care, be safe, Mahalos.
GGM Jason Groff
Ordonez Kajukenbo Ohana
http://www.ordonezkajukenbo.org

Offline Dave Jones

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Re: reality based training
« Reply #47 on: May 29, 2014, 08:53:06 AM »
and you guys can post we still trian that way but if you did you would have no students to pay your rent today , not saying your not traing hard just not old school if so you will  get sued for everthing as soon as you get a broken arm teeth kocked out ect its sad but time have changed......................

Not to argue the point sir, but we do train that way the majority of the time, partly because I do not need to pay rent.
I teach for free out of donated space.  Breaks, tears, etc are not uncommon in classes but I have never been sued.
There are even YouTube videos of my students volunteering to be choked completely unconscious or hit in the groin on camera.
Although the student who was choked out fell flat on his face afterwards {because he was not sitting the way he was taught to} he didn't sue anyone when he woke up.

In the last 4 weeks or so we've had broken fingers, a broken toe, a sprained ankle, a chipped tooth, and a separated shoulder off the top of my head.
Although I doubt the shoulder was in great shape before class.
I do not really keep track of the number of fat lips and bruises we get, but there are some about every class.

Just sayin
« Last Edit: May 29, 2014, 01:59:52 PM by Dave Jones »
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Offline Dave Jones

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Re: reality based training
« Reply #48 on: May 29, 2014, 09:03:04 AM »
As far as training, all of the Kajukenbo techniques (punch counters, grab arts, knife and club tricks) are reactive. So to profess being a kajukenbo practictioner and advocating strike first is a contradiction in training theory as the techniques are were designed to be defensive.
Aloha GM Jason.

I find the implication here to be disturbing, sir. 
It seems dangerously close to saying "Striking first was not how Kajukenbo was originally designed, so if you teach to strike first you are not teaching Kajukenbo..."

Does your statement mean the "training theory" itself is fixed?  Or that we are bound to the original techniques?
You know I have much love & respect for you, so I am truly curious about your position on this.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2014, 09:20:46 AM by Dave Jones »
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Offline Dave Jones

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Re: reality based training
« Reply #49 on: May 29, 2014, 09:11:05 AM »
I know of a couple that are serving time for felonious assault for giving somebody dirty lickens and preemptively striking them. Some have gotten misdemeanors.


The key here is in HawaiiThe Laws differ from State to State.
Understanding and working within the Laws that apply to you and yours is the key.

The use of / level of force must always be justified no matter what or where.
It does not matter if one strikes first or takes turns.  The Good Guy can go to jail when you take turns also.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2014, 02:03:41 PM by Dave Jones »
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Offline KajuJKDFighter

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Re: reality based training
« Reply #50 on: May 29, 2014, 09:45:19 AM »
For some old school reference GGM Gaylord would show throwing your keys, spitting or flicking a cigarette in the face then striking...he used it like a jab for the follow up right hand...
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Offline Dave Jones

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Re: reality based training
« Reply #51 on: May 29, 2014, 09:48:46 AM »
For some old school reference GGM Gaylord would show throwing your keys, spitting or flicking a cigarette in the face then striking...he used it like a jab for the follow up right hand...
We teach that sort of thing in class all the time, Prof Bono.
We train it when "giving" Bad Guys your wallet also.  Very effective distraction, although we are not from the Gaylord lineage.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2014, 02:00:55 PM by Dave Jones »
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Offline Ghost Rider

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Re: reality based training
« Reply #52 on: May 29, 2014, 04:07:46 PM »
Thanks to everyone for their input on this post.
It has been read over 1100 times and has had some good points made like pity pat is safe for children and beginners.
In my previous posts I was referring more to advanced training, but you have a valid point.
Also Patrick's post had a good reference point.
Personally, though, I like old school.
I came to Kajukenbo because of the pounding. It made me tough, it made me strong in both body and mind.
I can no longer do what I used to do, and I can't take the beatings I used to take, but I sure do miss it.
That's how it was done back then-the old way-in the back yard or in the garage.
I was trained in a garage and I taught out of my garage for 15 years.
When I watched the movie 300, and saw the way they fight, I thought to myself that the Spartans are definitely Kajukenbo.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2014, 04:09:53 PM by Ghost Rider »
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Offline Iakona

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Re: reality based training
« Reply #53 on: May 29, 2014, 05:02:25 PM »
As far as training, all of the Kajukenbo techniques (punch counters, grab arts, knife and club tricks) are reactive. So to profess being a kajukenbo practictioner and advocating strike first is a contradiction in training theory as the techniques are were designed to be defensive.
Aloha GM Jason.

I find the implication here to be disturbing, sir. 
It seems dangerously close to saying "Striking first was not how Kajukenbo was originally designed, so if you teach to strike first you are not teaching Kajukenbo..."

Does your statement mean the "training theory" itself is fixed?  Or that we are bound to the original techniques?
You know I have much love & respect for you, so I am truly curious about your position on this.

Aloha Sigung Dave,

No worry, you come from a solid lineage. You could be teaching banana peel techniques and it would still be Kajukenbo. You know I am probably  among the most progressive people on here as far as adjusting, modifying, refining, and innovating techniques to make them functional and work, vice doing rote stuff cause that's how it was done 60+ years ago. By the same token, if we get so far removed from the foundational concepts, then why even call it Kajukenbo.  Keep it real, keep it simple, keep it Kajukenbo. It is more about Honoring the name and lineage than it is about the particular techniques. Somebody will probably say in order to Honor it, you have to imitate it. I'm talking about Honoring the memory of those before us and keeping up the fire of the spirit by keeping the training going.

There is a lot of variance from state to state on what is allowed. Knowing what yours is paramount. For example, I understand in some states in the mainland you could shoot somebody from across the street if you saw them burging your neighbors house or if they were running away. In Hawaii, you would have to defend your actions even if the guy was in your house as the gun laws are what they are.

Uncle Frank has shared with me about the scraps Sijo has been in. All of them were due to someone provoking him, came at him starting some crap, or it was mutually agreed to fight. Sid Asuncion was in a bunch of scraps, probably most he started, it is what it is. But he was exonerated on self defense in that bar fight where the guy subsequently died. My point is if that is your personal choice to strike first then great, and sure I did it a couple times, but to make it a training doctrine for your students can be both negligent and irresponsible if it's not consistent with the laws of your locale. That, and it's just chest thumping bravado to say I'd knock someone on their asp if they were acting aggressively, although not actually attacking you. As stated in the Kajukenbo Prayer, "train our bodies to keep others mindful of thy commandments". So, however you want to interpret, infer, or imply that to mean is your call. Let your conscience be the guide how you treat your fellow man. Much love and respect for you to Dave. Aloha.
GGM Jason Groff
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Offline GM ALAN M. REYES

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Re: reality based training
« Reply #54 on: May 29, 2014, 07:53:55 PM »
As far as training, all of the Kajukenbo techniques (punch counters, grab arts, knife and club tricks) are reactive. So to profess being a kajukenbo practictioner and advocating strike first is a contradiction in training theory as the techniques are were designed to be defensive.
Aloha GM Jason.

I find the implication here to be disturbing, sir. 
It seems dangerously close to saying "Striking first was not how Kajukenbo was originally designed, so if you teach to strike first you are not teaching Kajukenbo..."

Does your statement mean the "training theory" itself is fixed?  Or that we are bound to the original techniques?
You know I have much love & respect for you, so I am truly curious about your position on this.

Aloha Sigung Dave,

No worry, you come from a solid lineage. You could be teaching banana peel techniques and it would still be Kajukenbo. You know I am probably  among the most progressive people on here as far as adjusting, modifying, refining, and innovating techniques to make them functional and work, vice doing rote stuff cause that's how it was done 60+ years ago. By the same token, if we get so far removed from the foundational concepts, then why even call it Kajukenbo.  Keep it real, keep it simple, keep it Kajukenbo. It is more about Honoring the name and lineage than it is about the particular techniques. Somebody will probably say in order to Honor it, you have to imitate it. I'm talking about Honoring the memory of those before us and keeping up the fire of the spirit by keeping the training going.

There is a lot of variance from state to state on what is allowed. Knowing what yours is paramount. For example, I understand in some states in the mainland you could shoot somebody from across the street if you saw them burging your neighbors house or if they were running away. In Hawaii, you would have to defend your actions even if the guy was in your house as the gun laws are what they are.

Uncle Frank has shared with me about the scraps Sijo has been in. All of them were due to someone provoking him, came at him starting some crap, or it was mutually agreed to fight. Sid Asuncion was in a bunch of scraps, probably most he started, it is what it is. But he was exonerated on self defense in that bar fight where the guy subsequently died. My point is if that is your personal choice to strike first then great, and sure I did it a couple times, but to make it a training doctrine for your students can be both negligent and irresponsible if it's not consistent with the laws of your locale. That, and it's just chest thumping bravado to say I'd knock someone on their asp if they were acting aggressively, although not actually attacking you. As stated in the Kajukenbo Prayer, "train our bodies to keep others mindful of thy commandments". So, however you want to interpret, infer, or imply that to mean is your call. Let your conscience be the guide how you treat your fellow man. Much love and respect for you to Dave. Aloha.
I'm interested in that comment also! I'm old school, original knowledge, and been teaching the same thing for all these years. If i were to do #3 grab art, if being attacked!!! The results will be? From the time of the grab, till the time of "ground and pound. What? Well in my way of thinking The possibilities are , That I would break your facial area, including the jaw line, possibility of snapping your neck, break your left elbow, then break your floating rib or more, shoving your ribs inward,with the possibity of the broken ribs piercing your lung for internal bleeding,With a left wheel kick going to your head or chest caving in your chest,,,as you fall,,but thats Kaj self defense at its most intense defensive posture,,,,,I can do this in a split second and I teach my Instructors and Students young or old the same. They all learn first at the pitty pat level but advance well into a defensive or killing mode when need be. And yes Ground and pound reverses the idea of who is attacking whom! I teach and believe in this Art we call Kajukenbo ,,,,oh yes in the time I do #3 grab art the possibilities are, is that the attacker is standing up DYING! Now G&P Oh well grabbed wrong person ; )
This is from an ex cop' ex military(Disable Vet) and a 9th Degree BB---ME! Kaj has helped me a Thousand times over and I owe everthing to its knowledge!
With all due respect
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Offline Ron Baker

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Re: reality based training
« Reply #55 on: May 29, 2014, 11:10:25 PM »
Having worked many years in the law field, I know that "Strike First" does have its risk of liability.  A few states (Florida, for example) are pretty lenient with their self defense laws.  There, you can conceivably initiate a verbal altercation and in the course of that altercation, if you feel imminently endangered you may use physical force.  But that's not the case in most other states.

As an instructor/school owner, it's advisable to know your state's self defense laws before teaching the neck-snapping, rib-breaking, lung-piercing, elbow-crushing Kajukenbo that GM Reyes so awesomely referenced.  Even if you're not an instructor, it's still a responsibly good thing to know what the law allows should you ever have a need to defend yourself.  A bloody nose, fat lip and a black eye is no big deal and can often be reasonably explained.   But multiple broken bones and organ damage will require serious explanation--and probably a lawyer--even if it was a case of self defense.



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Offline GM ALAN M. REYES

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Re: reality based training
« Reply #56 on: May 30, 2014, 06:35:04 AM »
Having worked many years in the law field, I know that "Strike First" does have its risk of liability.  A few states (Florida, for example) are pretty lenient with their self defense laws.  There, you can conceivably initiate a verbal altercation and in the course of that altercation, if you feel imminently endangered you may use physical force.  But that's not the case in most other states.

As an instructor/school owner, it's advisable to know your state's self defense laws before teaching the neck-snapping, rib-breaking, lung-piercing, elbow-crushing Kajukenbo that GM Reyes so awesomely referenced.  Even if you're not an instructor, it's still a responsibly good thing to know what the law allows should you ever have a need to defend yourself.  A bloody nose, fat lip and a black eye is no big deal and can often be reasonably explained.   But multiple broken bones and organ damage will require serious explanation--and probably a lawyer--even if it was a case of self defense.
Agreed,
In civilian life, one must take care of what he delivers. But in the case of what you learn in Kaj, one must take everything in consideration in a spilt second. Anything less and I might be the one, on the ground. In verbal provacation, hopfully I'll have enough precense of mind to control feelings and the situation. But when attacked, in that split second, I will dump  as much knowledge as I possible can, to defend self and love ones. In what I do at that time, I will be morally and physically responsible for my actions. For Self and Family, or God and Country.
assessing the situation and proceed as warranted, The speed you are dealing with and the thought processes,,,,,That IS Kajukenbo at its finest, SIJO was a genius,,,again in my way of thinking, if it aint broke, dont evolve it : )
With all due respect
GMReyes
See you in Vegas,,,I'd like a question and answer period, about past,present and future of Kaj ANYTHING!!! If I can't answer it surely we have the combined knowledge, to resolve anything,,,, I hope we can all get together and train, I'd like to lead the warm up Old school,,,like we did at Jaime's at Kauai, great memories!!!!
yours in Kajukenbo
GMREYES
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FirstGenerationStudent/Successor-GGM Aleju C. Reyes-RKK CA(1959)
FirstGenerationStudent-GGM Sijo Adriano D. Emperado-Palama Settlement Hi(1954)

Offline Dave Jones

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Re: reality based training
« Reply #57 on: May 30, 2014, 08:31:49 AM »
Thanks to everyone for their input on this post.
It has been read over 1100 times and has had some good points made like pity pat is safe for children and beginners.
In my previous posts I was referring more to advanced training, but you have a valid point.
Agreed, thank you everyone

Personally, though, I like old school.
I came to Kajukenbo because of the pounding. It made me tough, it made me strong in both body and mind.
I can no longer do what I used to do, and I can't take the beatings I used to take, but I sure do miss it.
That's how it was done back then-the old way-in the back yard or in the garage.
I was trained in a garage and I taught out of my garage for 15 years.
Agreed here too.  I still teach in a garage.
In fact we recently had an opportunity to possibly move the class to a local Rec Center - but all the students I asked said they preferred training "Old School" in a garage.
I was surprised and rather proud...


When I watched the movie 300, and saw the way they fight, I thought to myself that the Spartans are definitely Kajukenbo.
I think the same sort of thing when I see a brutal / efficient "realistic-looking" fight scene in shows or movies.
"He is Kaju and he doesn't even know it..."
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Offline Dave Jones

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Re: reality based training
« Reply #58 on: May 30, 2014, 08:33:43 AM »
There is a lot of variance from state to state on what is allowed. Knowing what yours is paramount.
...
My point is if that is your personal choice to strike first then great, and sure I did it a couple times, but to make it a training doctrine for your students can be both negligent and irresponsible if it's not consistent with the laws of your locale.
What he said
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Offline Dave Jones

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Re: reality based training
« Reply #59 on: May 30, 2014, 08:35:13 AM »
In civilian life, one must take care of what he delivers. But in the case of what you learn in Kaj, one must take everything in consideration in a spilt second. Anything less and I might be the one, on the ground.
I think this sums it up nicely
Dave Jones, CQB Kajukenbo Club - Fenton, MO
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