Black Belt video program. What do you guys think.

[John Bishop]

I year Video Black Belt Program

http://stevespry.com/

Total: $4491.00

Boy, I hope we never see this in Kajukenbo

[ThunderingHammers]

My name is Richard and I started the topic on 'kajukenbo training'. I would like to clearify that I got absolutely no interest in such programs as presented by Steve Spry.
Look, I earned my black belt in American Kenpo Karate through years of hard training. My instructors were qualified teachers and my teacher really did traveled around the world to get the wonderfull art of American Kenpo Karate (Ed Parkers system) piece by piece in the Netherlands. He was the first to introduce this art in the Netherlands and Belgium back in 1980 and he is the only person in Holland who received his first degree black belt by mr. Parker himself. I respect him because of his hard work to promote American Kenpo and the Martial Arts in general and to me he absolutely is a big example.
I would truly feel I was fooling not only myselff but my teacher too if I would take part at such programs as presented by Steve Spry.
I am an qualified instructor myself right now and I know that it is not something you archieve through a so called 1 year quaranteed black belt program. I would truly feel that I was dishonoring my self and the style I practice and also the Martial Arts in general, if I would present something like that. So I realy do not understand how such person can possibly call himself a Martial Artist.

In my topic on 'Kajukenbo Training' I did not presented myself as someone who would like to achieve a black belt in Kajukenbo in one year and that I would like to do that by a special video program. I simply asked for help on a problem I faced when I got interested in the beautifull art of Kajukenbo and found out that there are no teachers and school in the Netherlands wich teaches this art. I did find the Mastering Kajukenbo tapes by Gary Forbach and indeed started training with them. Well, let me tell you this. If I wanted so, I could buy myself a black belt for just $10 and presented myself as a Kajukenbo instructeur in the Netherlands. No would know. Everybody can open a school or a dojo here in Holland. But I realy am above that. Thats why I contacted the Kajukenbo Cafe and different persons who realy are in Kajukenbo. I told them my story, and I asked the experts a question on how I can handle things concerning learning more. And I got great advice.

I did mentioned something about special Instructors Courses, since it is true that I allready have a black belt. I think to me things will go a little faster and that mastering the basics will be no problem at all. American Kenpo and Kajukenbo have a lot of similarities. But, If a qualified instructor will test my skills and find that I have to run through the complete program as any beginner should do, than its fine with me. I will.

 At this very moment A Belgium instructor and student of Prof. Angel Garcia from Spain (wich is official representative of Kajukenbo/K.S.D.I in Europe) contacted me concerning training. And I can and will train at least one weekend a month, but probably even two at his home in Belgium. I am realy intending to visit Angel Garcia in Spain at least Once but probably twice a year in Spain to train in Kajukenbo and too learn as much as possible from him.
In march prof. Garcia is presenting a Seminair in Paris, France and I also will visit that one to learn.

Look, I am realy serious about this matter and not fooling around.
I certainly do not see Prof. Gary Forbach's videoseries on Kajukenbo as a complete black belt program, although the lyrics on the back of the sleeve says: 'this dynamic series includes all requirements for achieving a black belt in kajukenbo'. I simply do not believe that, since I believe that the system contains a lot more than the stuff presented on the tapes. I only use those tapes as a quide through my solo training at moments I do not have acces through a real life instructor. And for that purpose those tapes of prof. Forbach are great.

Let me tell you that I find it a big discrace to American Kenpo Karate and Martial Arts in General, what Steve Spry is presenting. He uses (without any shame) Ed Parkers Sayings, the name of the style and elements from his Kenpo Crest and Kenpo flame patch without even mentioning Ed Parkers name. I certainly feel he is dishonoring American Kenpo and Ed Parker by doing this. And I do not wish to be any part of this. If it would take years and years to master Kajukenbo, than so be it. I got no problem with that at all.

I really do not intend to be angry at anyone but it simply is the way I feel about this and I feel that I have to share my opinion and feelings about this with you all.

Great respect to the true Martial Artists,

Richard Baarspul

[John Bishop]

Maybe some of you are reading more into the question than what was asked.  
The question was not pointed toward anyone or any style, other than possibly Steve Spry.

[palama50]

I agree, naturally with sigung John in reference to the subject of Video Certification of Martial training. In my opinion the matter of how much someone charges for this type of thing makes a statement about not only that particular instructor but the selling of Martial Arts in this day and age. Specific to Kajukenbo this is something we should all hope we never see. Video medium and the like can be a useful supplement to regular hard training but never an acceptable primary method . Aloha to all.

MRM

[sig666+]

I can say that I was not train in the Kajukenbo forms Palama set (old Pinnians) or any of the Forbach's Tech....
My Techniques and forms were not two similar to what it shown in the Forbach, Habuna's or Dacasco videos, they look similar but are not the same, Kajukenbo has more ways of learning it,  Videos are one way, if you can learn with Videos !!good!!(Is still kajukenbo). or what ever the style is,
I learn the palama set's Katas from The Videos, my students use some of the school Videos to remember the techniques. the Videos can teach. Is the details that are missing, theses can be learn later on.
!!Is how you see it!!!
(It is very rare to find some one that has no instructor or Roots) make you wonder? #$@%$#

The value of them is what you will achive and learn, gain skills, learning the basics, even if you have a Instructor in front, make no deffrence  if there is no practice. Skills have no value.
only Practicing... Can build Perfection.
solo or with Inst.. MY Opin...

[John Bishop]

First off I don't believe you can earn a black belt in a year.  I am not saying that someone who is already at black belt level in another system cannot learn the requirements of another system.  
But, someone starting from scratch with no martial arts training would be hard pressed to develop the skills and knowledge that most legitimate instructors require for black belt promotion.  
Now take away the hands on training under a qualified instructor in a group or in private and substitute a video tape.   You can all imagine the results.
Video is a excellent tool in the martial arts when used properly.  
It works well when used as visual notes to refresh your memory about techniques and forms that you have been practicing in class.  
It also works well to show a student form mistakes they are making.  Sometimes what you think your doing is not really what your doing.  By seeing yourself actually preforming a movement, you will see where you need to make corrections.  

[Mell]

To Thundering Hammer,

I don't think anyone was meaning to critize you.  I understand the frustration of wanting to train in an area with no instructor.  Keep looking, eventually, Kajukenbo will reach your area!!!!  I aplaud you for making the effort to train from the videos.

On a side note.  I have actually met people who were in paid programs where they paid a flat fee and were guarnteed a black belt in two years without prior training.   It definately showed!  If anyone offers you a program like this in any martial arts style, even if it is one on one training, stay away from it!!!!    No qualified instructor whould ever make such a claim or promise.

[ThunderingHammers]

It seems to be popular these days to receive a black belt as soon as possible. I think that it is wrong in the first place to start a Martial Arts program with the intention to hunt for the black belt as it is the ultimate goal, like there is nothing else you can earn by practice any Martial Arts Style.  You can buy a black belt anywhere. It is a pitty because some people do not realize that the true value of Martial Arts training does not lie in wearing a black belt but in the complete Journey the training progress contains. You have to ask yourselff: For whom am I wearing that Black Belt?

Like Sigung John Bishop said, I too do not believe in earning a Black Belt in one year. Video is a great supplement to your solo training, but is no substitute for a real 'life' teacher and that is why I was looking so hard to find a real teacher, but also one who is qualified to teach.

To Mell:
Thank you very much for your possitive reply. Don't worry about me involving in a video black belt program, it will be the last thing I would do and even then....

Training with proff. Gary Forbach's video's got me interested in a real instructor who can watch me, correct me and teach me. I would have the idea I was fooling myself when I received a Black Belt only by learning from those video tapes, I hope everybody else will feel the same way.

[sig666+]

I have some  questions,
Can we learn from a ilustrated book?
Are videos ilustrated live books?

I take the time two read and look at theses videos.
No matter what is the source of choice to Learn, if the source is good, you will gain skills. (no offence) but there are some videos and books  that are much better to read and look, than two hear an Instructor. Wisdom can not be teach, it come from Experience.  Your knowledge to find it. That can projected some source to absorbed and learn.
If you have the right source.

[Mike Nagano]

Good point....Videos are resources for learning just as books are.  However, it doesn't seem to me that anyone's arguing that point.  It seems to me that the point being made here is that videos should only be used to supplement quality instruction, not take its place.  For supplementing information, I think videos are very valuable tools.  

Richard mentioned the videos by Prof. Forbach.  I have those videos myself and have used them to brush up my memory a bit.  My primary instructor in Kajukenbo is Sigung Bishop and I value the time spent in his classes.  Nothing takes the place of quality face-to-face instruction.

It is unfortunate that there are video correspondence courses out there in the martial arts (i.e. video black belt courses).  It is even more disappointing to me that these courses are being used to make someone a profit.  What disappoints me even more is that some poor schmuck with little or no knowledge of the martial arts is going to think that this is a great way to learn the arts and may some day think he can teach others.  I know of an aerobics  instructor who tried to convert over to "kickboxing" in the same manner so that she could teach a "Tae Bo" like class.  Eventually (if memory serves me correctly), she blew out her knee trying some kicks she saw in a video.

Unfortunately, such videos will probably be around for a while.  Hopefully, they don't creep their way into the Kajukenbo world.

[ThunderingHammers]

There was a time that, due to work, I had little time to attend classes. But I was eager to learn my new form. At that moment it was Form # 4 of the system. So what I did, I did go to a Martial Art shop and bought a video tape (by Larry Tatum) wich covered that specific form.  It was a great video wich did go through all the little details. It was a perfect tool for me to learn that form. I did it. And I did it good. Without 'live' instruction it brought me to second place in Forms competition at the European Kenpo Karate Championships. But when I had the time to attend class I always had a instructor whom I could ask if I was doing the right thing.
Do you know why I could learn that form by video tape, except the fact that Larry Tatums video's are state of the art? Because I allready had a big background in Kenpo and knew all I had to knew about basics, body allignment, explosiveness, speed, power, coordination etc...Because I allready had that background I could annalize the movements I saw and interpret the instructions correctly. But what if I had no experience at all?  I am sure I would not have made it second place in a European Championship.  

What I wonder when I read those advertisements on Video Black Belt programs, is how a person is going to learn Karate or any Martial Arts on his own, without partner training. It is impossible to learn Karate without partner training, unless you doing Tai Chi or Chi Kung or something like that. And even then sometimes you need partners.

So I think we may conclude that good Video or Books (sometimes I learn some things from books too) are excelent tools to supplement ones training but never can replace a real 'live' instructor unless he can come out of the t.v. and put you in the right positions when needed.

[JoelApolonio01]

While in certain respects I like the idea of videotapes.
( I use soem of Green Dragon Kung Fu of Sifu John Allen)
I also realize that without the trained eye of an experienced instructor, you'll be hard pressed to correct yourself. Soemthings need to be imparted in face to face contact. You can mimick a form to death, but your balance or timing may be off.
If your alone in your training it will be hard to develop the timing , and ability to read your adversary that a class full of like minded student would be a great help for. I don't really like point sparring ( Besides I'm no good at it. ) But I do like the repetitions drill. I just wish I could remember to take my time time to learn and develop other skills that I'd like to. Also, I'd like to see my training parter respond better and try to counter my defense response.
So using videotape can be a good training tool. ( I used the tapes Sigung Bishop has to help me with my belt rank test preparation. ) But, earning rank and the ability to be an instructor with them... Not a good Idea.

As an aside. I used to like off of Knott ave in Anaheim, go southa few miles it becomes the street Mr. Spys dojo is on. I saw his school and web site. HE IS VERY EXPENSIVE ! I don't mind shelling out my dough for good instruction. I'd gladly part with half my pay to train with Sigung Bishop ( The nice part is his training is through the city, so It is less expensive than most other schools.) But, Mr. Spry is outrageous. just my 2 cents which right now is all I can afford.

Joel Apolonio

[Karazenpo]

 In responding to Sigung's original question, I believe it was directed toward the Steve Spry video program, earning(?) a black belt in one year via these tapes and a substantial fee. This topic also came up in another forum that I responded to, so I had checked out the website and here is my opinion.
  I honestly thought that in this day and age prospective students were more educated in the martial arts than to "fall" for something like this. Well, I guess I was wrong. This is totally unbelievable! Please let me state I am by no means against training tapes. I have them myself. They definitely have a valuable place as a supplement to our training or to the unfortunate who do not have an instructor of a particular style within reasonable travel time. However, they should not be used for the purpose of awarding rank, not to mention in one year! One year! I can't see how anyone can justify this and let's face it, let's pull no punches, it's all about the MONEY!  This program is a PROSTITUTION OF THE ART!!!  Okay, I'm fine now, I vented. I've been brought up to respect everyone's opinion but in this case I can't see how anyone does not see through this scam for what it really is and if they do, Sigung Bishop & I have some tickets for sale to the Kosho Ryu Temple in Japan where Mitose trained.  Any takers?    

[Nagi]

What makes me angry is for the the people who truely train really hard and put a lot of time & devotion into their Art to get to where they are, and some one get's the same rank in a year's time. Of course their skill's will be drastic from one another and their skill will not be equal to each other, but they are equal in rank which is unfair.

[Nagi]