Author Topic: Dangers of Edged Weapons!  (Read 8707 times)

Karazenpo

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Re: Dangers of Edged Weapons!
« Reply #15 on: March 04, 2003, 04:14:55 PM »
Your welcome Sifu Tim and it is obvious you are well versed in this field. I enjoyed reading your concepts and will integrate it into my training programs. I do have one question. You had mentioned blocking the knife weilding hand. Could you elaborate on that please. The reason is when I took several seminars from Filippino martial artists ( one with Tuhon Leo Gaje back in '87 when we were in the U.S. Police Defensive Tactics Assoc.) we were taught that when "conventional" martial arts blocks were used that a skilled knife fighter anticipates the block redirecting the knife in a circular-like motion, so if he don't get you where he's targeting it will still re-direct, let's say around your wrist or blocking arm and cut you there. Know what I'm trying to say? Looking forward to your response. Respectfully, Shihan Joe
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »

Offline sifutimg

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Re: Dangers of Edged Weapons!
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2003, 11:36:52 AM »
Shihan Shuras,
Due to length of my response I have to post this in two parts.

Part 1:

Thanks for your kind words Shihan Shuras.  I don't consider myself versed, only still learning.  Especially when it comes to something so dangerous.  Something I remember Professor Forbach saying at a seminar years ago when a question came up about knife technique was to take it very very serious, as this is how Sijo's Brother died.  I will never forget the intensity on Professor Forbach's face when he talked about this subject; it left a lasting impression on me.  Then when I started teaching commercially and had two students involved in such an altercation, one being slashed in 7 places and the other stabbed through the left armpit puncturing his heart where he immediately bled to death, I stepped back and took a long look at what I was teaching.  I then endeavored upon research with several folks from different styles where we got those survival knives and filed them dull, then engaged each other using all the techniques we all had learned over the years, we became very aware fast what would work and what would get you cut seriously or killed.  Of course going full bore with filed down survival knives was still very dangerous and had to still make concessions for safety sake.  Going to the cammo paint and flexible plastic knives improved the level of intensity, but was still not truly realistic especially when it came to any disarm opportunities.  What came of all of this though was just how many techniques simply would not work period.  This is such a chaotic situation that technique alone wasn't going to do it.  What was needed was a set of rules to follow and then know when to break those rules.  It's about this time I met Guru Stevan Plinck and started studying Pukulan Pentjak Silat Sera.  This is a blade art first and empty hand art second.  The style Sera is a principle-based art that meshes very well with the Kajukenbo I have been studying for the last 23 years.  

Please go to part 2...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »
Grandmaster Tim Gagnier
Student of Great Grandmaster Charles Gaylord & Grandmaster Sid Lopez
Chief Instructor Pacific Wind Kajukenbo
Student Forever
Yamhill, Oregon

Offline sifutimg

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Re: Dangers of Edged Weapons!
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2003, 11:42:42 AM »
Part 2:

Now to answer your question Shihan Shuras.  I think I know what you're trying to say and hope I don't get it wrong.  Written words are sometimes difficult to interpret so I will do my best here.   Again back to my previous post about teaching someone to expect to get cut.  I don't go there until a question such as yours comes up.  First of all when facing a knife-wielding attacker and am cornered I will always present bone to them.  What I mean here is outer forearm and shin.  Yes there are still many bad places to get cut but at least they are minimized.  As you establish some sort of shield, I get low where my lead hand elbow can close my center off by touching my lead leg knee.  The idea is to keep all the vitals behind bone.  Also by getting lower your opponent has fewer targets to engage.  Now when I am facing my opponent and am looking at them, there can be tell tale signs about their skill with the knife they are holding.  I know this can be used in deception however.  In the Silat I practice there isn't the use of fakes per say everything is treated as real.  Now it's up to how well your opponent understands distance.  If I hold my ground, my opponent has to get a certain distance to cut me lethally.  If he is outside that distance then the cut is probably going to manifest on my shielding somewhere and with the Lord's grace not my vitals.  Now in the situation where I think it's coming across and my opponent diverts his trajectory midstream as I am attempting to block, I am not going to tell you that I have a way to handle that.  However if I still follow principle and keep my high line and low line covered (never all your eggs in one basket), present only bone, and treat everything as real I will deal with the attack however it manifests, and with God's help survive and go home to my wife and kids.  There is another thing that is practiced in our Silat classes and that is going into the danger.  Going into the danger is viewed as being a safer place than outside of it where multiple potentialities exist with the least amount of sensory data at your disposal.  Yes, in the danger there are still multiple potentialities that may manifest, but you are now attached and sensitive to what those may become because your in a position to take in more sensory data because you can now feel with your own body what their body may do.  Now back to your scenario (one of many I realize).  If my opponent starts out high and I place my block accordingly and my opponent then circles it or pulls it short and I follow that movement into the danger and I still have high and low lines covered, I can now use my body to both off balance them and feel where they want to stab or slash my ugly butt.  No guarantees in chaos however.  If I am off balancing them, they have no base to generate real power and their body is fighting to remain balanced and therefore distracted.  Again if I keep my high and low lines covered then the lethality of the cuts I may receive may be minimized (I hope I hope I hope).  This is only one of 1000's of responses to an attack such as this and I hope I answered your question.  I know this was a bit long winded and I apologize for that.  I am someone who is still very much a beginner and am sharing my interpretation of what I have experienced.  I have been killed many times as the cammo paint has shown me.  Practicing though in this way has increased my odds in the training sessions as it has with everyone.  However if someone on the street pulls out a knife, I am running my asp like no tomorrow, but if cornered I will say a prayer and stick to principle and attempt to create the best chance for survival I can.

Again, sorry everyone for such a long-winded response.

Yours in training,
Sifu Tim Gagnier
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »
Grandmaster Tim Gagnier
Student of Great Grandmaster Charles Gaylord & Grandmaster Sid Lopez
Chief Instructor Pacific Wind Kajukenbo
Student Forever
Yamhill, Oregon

Karazenpo

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Re: Dangers of Edged Weapons!
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2003, 12:55:34 PM »
Thank you very much Sifu Tim and you can never be long winded when explaining to someone on how to survive a knife attack! I also recall hearing about what happened to Joe Emperado. I do follow your concepts. The presenting bone for as a target is what I interpret and tell my students in knife attacks is that you will choose the target for the assailant rather than he or to put it simply if a doberman lunges for your throat you feed him your arm!, 'cause you know you'll have a good chance of surviving the attack.  As far as crouching to make yourself a lesser target & exposing less vitals, I definitely follow that from the "shrinking" & yielding concepts from the Chinese arts. Excellent, I will include your concepts & principles in my edged weapon curriculum. I feel this post has been a success!

                                   Take care & God bless, Shihan Joe
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »

Offline Gints Klimanis

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Re: Dangers of Edged Weapons!
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2003, 02:25:46 PM »
Sifu Gagnier,

Thank you for all of the wisdom in your posts.  As someone that knife spars/fights regularly, I am always trying to find new training methods.  I do have a few comments on the knife edge painting.  While the
paint clearly does make a mess, it rewards the use
of the edge over the point.  Also, during edge strikes,
chops register just as much as cuts.  Chops with
a larger knife are great for "tater-totting" fingers (cleaving bone) but are less effective on larger surface areas on meats.  To relate to the common example, that's why why press-n-drag knives on steaks.

Personally, I have found videotape review to be the most useful in learning weapons sparring.  Since the
weapons are simulators, it's difficult to learn their
impact.   In the beginning, it's quite useful to spar shirtless or at least padless using aluminum knives, as long as you're careful to deburr the blades frequently.
Long blades have proven to be safer than short blades
during this type of sparring. Most pokes will register as red polka dots that show up the next day.  If the blades are not deburred, the skin will break more often.  I use
a Black-N-Decker "Mouse" sander to smooth any burrs
between rounds.





« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »
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Offline kurt38

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Re: Dangers of Edged Weapons!
« Reply #20 on: March 12, 2003, 10:23:56 PM »
I'm always interested in knife stuff and would like to buy a couple videos on knife defenses/fighting, however there are dozens!   ???  Can any of you recommend a few good knife videos?  Thanks!
Sibak Kurt
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:00 PM by 1054443600 »

Karazenpo

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Re: Dangers of Edged Weapons!
« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2003, 07:20:30 AM »
Hey Sibak Kurt, The instruction I received in edged weapons was "hands on" so I don't have any tapes to recommend you. Some training was from my instructors, such as Professor Pesare who teaches "Blade Fighting", others were from training seminars. When I was a director with the United States Police Defensive Tactics Association we had Tuhon Leo Gaje teach several seminars on this topic. He was superb! If he has a tape out I would say, go for it! As a police training officer I was sent to the "Tactical Edge- Street Survival" seminars. They were put on by the Calibre Press (Charles Remsberg & Dennis Anderson). Their seminars were several days long and were only open to civillian & police personnel but they had several hard cover books out and some videos. At one time Tuhon Dan Innosanto was their advisor on a segment titled: "Surviving Edged Weapons". ¬†He was another superb "master of the blade"!  Kajukenmen mentioned Tony Blauer, perhaps he can help you on this and from what I recall Mr. Blauer has an excellent reputation in this field. Sorry I don't have anything more concrete for you, hopefully someone reading these posts can help! :) ¬†Respectfully, Shihan Joe
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 06:00:03 PM by -1 »